MMA, UFC, The Cage, what does it prove?

[LuckyKBoxer]

First one was, after that they made the match ups random. But the original intent was definitely to promote the Gracie name.

That said, there where no rules when Royce fought, so there where no rules designed to protect him.

The only two where no eye gouging and no biting. Enforcement was a fine that was paid to the other person after the match, but the match itself would't be stopped for a violation. Royce did get bit in UFC 1 too, and too be honest he was generally in a far better position to use those techniques then his opponent most of the time.

LOL
Just because the matchups were random does not mean the fighters were not handpicked as a collective to highlight Royces strengths..it was still a giant commercial....that worked very successfully
there were no rules......only two.... um what?
Hey look I dont discount the fights reality... I trained and still occasionally talk to Carlos Valente who was there with Royce at the first UFCs, supposedly Carlos was one of the match makers as well. I watched those first several UFCs at the time as well.
I still train actively in Gracie Jiu Jitsu to this day with Gracie Barra with no desire to ever stop, am currently a Purple Belt, and a huge proponent of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and grappling in general.
That does not change the intent of the UFC in its first incarnation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Lousy title, sorry, couldn't come up with much with the space allowed. The topic really is what does being successful in the MMA, UFC, The Cage prove? Are these indeed the best fighters, or are the best styles "proven" by looking at what styles succeed more often? Is it more the best athletes who do will in the confines of the environement and the rules allowed? Or would only no holds barred, no rules, fight to the deaths be the only way to really show who was the best or what styles are the best?

I think the latter would be a better indicator, although totally barbaric, and would result in a lot of needless deaths. Perhaps what works on the streets and/or battlefields as indicated in police reports and after action battle reports would be a better indicator? Of course weapons attacks, especially those using guns would win hands down if that was used. What do you think? All opinons appreciated.

I think you answered it already.

Is it more the best athletes who do will in the confines of the environement and the rules allowed?

Swap "Is it" to "It is" and you have the statement.

People with good training can over come those with poor training. So style or school could be used here as comparison, but not a real one as the skill levels are not close.

Get people close in skill and fitness and then you come down to the person who person who is able to execute it the best themselves. They could win lots of fights and then teach others, but unless one of their students has the same drive and goals and desires to compete with the same skill sets, they will not win any fights. Being the best fighter does quarentee a good coach. And many a good coach were good technitions but may not have been the "BEST" fighters.


It shows to me that there are two people who agree to a set of rules and have agreed to be combative to each other to have a competition. Nothing more and nothing less.

Should the good ones get paid? Yes, as people like to watch and possibel learn.

Should they be over confident? Nope.

 

[Ronin74]

Something I would like to add is that while competitive success in MMA may not be everyone's goal I think it's a valuable tool that can be implemented to help round-out/enhance any martial art's curriculum.

From what limited MMA experience I've had, it just gave me a boarder set of tools to use with my foundation in FMA. It's not like I can walk down the street carrying blades or sticks (will that day ever come... lol), so it helps to know that while my foundation in FMA will dictate how I react and move, MMA training gives me other tools when empty-hands are the only option.

 

[BLACK LION]

Cmon... Keith Hackney vs the 600lb monster... that was a shocker in and of itself...

 

[Tez3]

Cmon... Keith Hackney vs the 600lb monster... that was a shocker in and of itself...

Nah, that was just very, very funny!

 

[BLACK LION]

Why would you want to do that to athletes? Would you try it with boxers or Olympic TKDists and Judoka?
Tbh, thats just silly. MMA is a sport why try to make it anything else?

Sorry... I took the original post as asking what would be an ultimate indicator of fighting skill... sport or barbaric... I figured, why not merge the two... sorry I went off on a tangent. In the end there is a clear difference and both with differnt end results... whos the best when governed by rules and moral codes and whos the best when in a completely asocial environment devoid of rules and morality.... there are clearly 2 different types of best here on 2 different scales. Back in the day...they were merged together. Over the years we have split the two making one glorious and one despicable...

 

[Tez3]

Sorry... I took the original post as asking what would be an ultimate indicator of fighting skill... sport or barbaric... I figured, why not merge the two... sorry I went off on a tangent. In the end there is a clear difference and both with differnt end results... whos the best when governed by rules and moral codes and whos the best when in a completely asocial environment devoid of rules and morality.... there are clearly 2 different types of best here on 2 different scales. Back in the day...they were merged together. Over the years we have split the two making one glorious and one despicable...

No need to be sorry, I think you gave the OP more answers than he was looking for, I read the OP as another post asking what was the point of MMA...as in 'bashing' MMA!

 

[Steve]

Actually I am a firm believer that when the UFC first hit the stage it was designed as a giant commercial for Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
It was designed to make Gracie Jiu Jitsu look like the ultimate martial art. Hand Picked opponents, the few rules were designed to protect the Royce. It worked perfectly as designed, and Gracie Jiu Jitsu is still riding the wave of popularity generated over 16 years ago.

If you look at who competed in the early UFCs, you'll see that there were a few duds, but overall, they were tough hombres. Sambo guys, Judoka, shoot fighters and several people with pancrase experience.

While it was organized by Rorian and the Gracies definitely had a stake in it, the fights weren't rigged and were far from guaranteed. Also, Royce was, even then, not the biggest, baddest or most technical fighter. He was picked specifically for those reasons.

I'm usually right there with anyone saying the Gracies are blackbelts in self promotion, but this allegation that the early UFCs can be discounted out of hand is hogwash.

Royce fought some tough fights without rules and ground out a win against people who were bigger, stronger and also not unfamiliar with ground fighting.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

If you look at who competed in the early UFCs, you'll see that there were a few duds, but overall, they were tough hombres. Sambo guys, Judoka, shoot fighters and several people with pancrase experience.

While it was organized by Rorian and the Gracies definitely had a stake in it, the fights weren't rigged and were far from guaranteed. Also, Royce was, even then, not the biggest, baddest or most technical fighter. He was picked specifically for those reasons.

I'm usually right there with anyone saying the Gracies are blackbelts in self promotion, but this allegation that the early UFCs can be discounted out of hand is hogwash.

Royce fought some tough fights without rules and ground out a win against people who were bigger, stronger and also not unfamiliar with ground fighting.

I never said they were fixed fights.
I simply said the fighers themselves were handpicked by the Gracies nad the Gracies representatives..
I never said the fighters were not tough guys.
I never said the early UFC should be discounted.
Hell go back and look up several of the Gracies own comments about why they did the UFC...it was not for the sake of MMA, it was for the sake of the Gracie Jiu Jitsu... I am pretty glad they did as well, I doubt I would have discovered it and enjoy it like I do if it had not been for the UFC.
I am not knocking it...just calling it like I see it.

 

[Tez3]

If you look at who competed in the early UFCs, you'll see that there were a few duds, but overall, they were tough hombres. Sambo guys, Judoka, shoot fighters and several people with pancrase experience.

While it was organized by Rorian and the Gracies definitely had a stake in it, the fights weren't rigged and were far from guaranteed. Also, Royce was, even then, not the biggest, baddest or most technical fighter. He was picked specifically for those reasons.

I'm usually right there with anyone saying the Gracies are blackbelts in self promotion, but this allegation that the early UFCs can be discounted out of hand is hogwash.

Royce fought some tough fights without rules and ground out a win against people who were bigger, stronger and also not unfamiliar with ground fighting.

They aren't the only Brazilians to do that, we've got a few who have come over here and tried it on. We had a Brazilian BJJ guy, admittedly a very good instructor, come to do seminars for us. The first was very good and well received but to do another he asked for twice as much money! I've heard stories about others here to.

 

[Joab]

No need to be sorry, I think you gave the OP more answers than he was looking for, I read the OP as another post asking what was the point of MMA...as in 'bashing' MMA!

I wasn't bashing MMA, I was asking a question to spur discussion. It went remarkably well, often I begin a post and it goes off on a tangent that I never imagined. I have to say, to be honest, that my biggest infleunce in the martial arts and by far the most important teacher in my developement in the martial arts (As, sadly, it still has a long, long way to go...I'm slow in learning the martial arts) is the founder of a RBSD system who really doesn't like sports martial arts, and really only cares about self defense, so some of his attitude does rub off on me. I really don't like sports martial arts all that much, especially the UFC, as their commercials quite frankly offend me. I do like Olympic tae-kwon-do and judo, but haven't seen a lot of it. My main interest in the martial arts is really self defense, how to survive a violent encounter by somebody trying to do you in, and especially how to keep my wife safe if we are attacked together. I don't know a lot about MMA, quite frankly. But my post was to spur a good discussion, and a good discussion is what I got, thanks to everyone!

 

[Phoenix44]

Well, "best" is a funny word, but they're pretty damn good. Fit, outstanding athletes, and great at what they do.

I'd suggest you read, Wertheim's "Blood in the Cage: MMA, Pat Miletich, and the Furious Rise of the UFC."

 

[Twin Fist]

must not post...................too....many jokes........................dont do it.............

 

[Tez3]

I wasn't bashing MMA, I was asking a question to spur discussion. It went remarkably well, often I begin a post and it goes off on a tangent that I never imagined. I have to say, to be honest, that my biggest infleunce in the martial arts and by far the most important teacher in my developement in the martial arts (As, sadly, it still has a long, long way to go...I'm slow in learning the martial arts) is the founder of a RBSD system who really doesn't like sports martial arts, and really only cares about self defense, so some of his attitude does rub off on me. I really don't like sports martial arts all that much, especially the UFC, as their commercials quite frankly offend me. I do like Olympic tae-kwon-do and judo, but haven't seen a lot of it. My main interest in the martial arts is really self defense, how to survive a violent encounter by somebody trying to do you in, and especially how to keep my wife safe if we are attacked together. I don't know a lot about MMA, quite frankly. But my post was to spur a good discussion, and a good discussion is what I got, thanks to everyone!

I think your idea of a good discussion on MMA is different from mine, I felt it wasn't at all productive. Your post came over as very negative about it as you've now said you don't like it based on a dislike of UFC ads, you have learned little about actual MMA and it's impact around the world nor what it really is.

Post jokes by all means it will improve the thread!

 

[Joab]

Well, Tez, I thought it was good because it got ideas regarding ways to find out what would really work in a number of different scenarios that I hadn't really though of. And I'm glad to read most don't think MMA really decides who is the best, but rather who is the best in a MMA environement with MMA rules. It gave me more respect for MMA really.

At any rate, I found the posts illuminating. It gave me more respect for MMA devotees. And actually I do like MMA in the sense of borrowing from various styles. I've borrowed from all four systems I've studied to come up with something I think would work for me, certainly nothing that even resembles a complete system that I could copyright, but a few moves here and there that I think would work for me. Mixed martial arts makes a lot of sense really, they all have some things that work for some people other things that don't work for some people. More power to MMA, MMA is great, MMA is the way to go! Can't be more positive than that eh Tez!

 

[Haze]

Matches only show who is the better fighter in a controlled match at that given time.

It is no different than any other sporting event.

 

[Tez3]

Well, Tez, I thought it was good because it got ideas regarding ways to find out what would really work in a number of different scenarios that I hadn't really though of. And I'm glad to read most don't think MMA really decides who is the best, but rather who is the best in a MMA environement with MMA rules. It gave me more respect for MMA really.

At any rate, I found the posts illuminating. It gave me more respect for MMA devotees. And actually I do like MMA in the sense of borrowing from various styles. I've borrowed from all four systems I've studied to come up with something I think would work for me, certainly nothing that even resembles a complete system that I could copyright, but a few moves here and there that I think would work for me. Mixed martial arts makes a lot of sense really, they all have some things that work for some people other things that don't work for some people. More power to MMA, MMA is great, MMA is the way to go! Can't be more positive than that eh Tez!

LOL, Ok I'll give you that one!!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I don't think it sets out to prove anything and I think if you expect it to you'll be disappointed.
No one asked what boxing proves or if throwing a javelin means you can carry a spear into a warzone and fight the enemy.
Guardian is correct,if it proves anything it's that it's great fun and enjoyable from whatever way you approach it.
Andrew has nailed the other bits making my posting redundant lol!

Actually the UFC originally set out to prove the superiority of BJJ.......at it's conception. It had a purpose. It evolved, however.


I think there are a lot of folks who forget the early UFC's and forget the intent and purpose, and what it did prove to some degree.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Actually, they wanted the DogBrothers to do a full-contact stick match back in the day, but the DB declined. And it would not be a death match. As anyone can see at a Gatheringof The Pack.

Actually they approached the DB's......but then changed their mind as full-contact stick fighting might be viewed as too extreme, especially given the resistance they were already encountering. http://dogbrothers.com/pages/articles_ufcletter.html

 

[sgtmac_46]

Something I would like to add is that while competitive success in MMA may not be everyone's goal I think it's a valuable tool that can be implemented to help round-out/enhance any martial art's curriculum.

From what limited MMA experience I've had, it just gave me a boarder set of tools to use with my foundation in FMA. It's not like I can walk down the street carrying blades or sticks (will that day ever come... lol), so it helps to know that while my foundation in FMA will dictate how I react and move, MMA training gives me other tools when empty-hands are the only option.

MMA, like it's components (boxing, wrestling, muay thai, BJJ, etc, etc) provides EXCELLENT lessons for those looking for components of self-defense.......IF they have the ability to seperate the sport aspects from the larger commonality of purpose.

For example.......the ability to throw punches against someone attempting a takedown, or throw knees and elbows to prevent a takedown, or a hundred other examples are useful skills..........all honed to a great degree in the ring, and available for the learning.