miyamoto mushashi: how to perceive intention of your opponent

ark400

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mushashi wrote in his classic "a book of five rings" that you must perceive the intention of your opponent and before he makes a move, you make a move.

he advised the following way to perceive intention of opponent:

1. becoming the opponent:

you should put yourself in opponents shoe and try to think from his point of view what he can do. if your opponent knows that you are a master of MA, he might think he may lose or he may be mentally weak.


2. arresting the shadow

you may use any advantageous rhythm to determine opponents motive and then you can find winning advantage.

3. mismatch the rhythm

you must take a rhythm that does not match that of your opponent. this is described in para like "mountain and sea change" or " knowing disintegration" etc.

from the fire scroll in the book of five rings by miyomoto mushashi
 

Cyriacus

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Or you could just beat him and not care about his feelings towards you. Or you could get beaten for caring about how he feels about you. Martial arts people are made fun of, not held in reverence and fear.
 

Chris Parker

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And.... both of you missed what was being said.... Musashi isn't easy to get a handle on at the best of times, and honestly, these comments aren't what was meant. For the record....
 

Mauthos

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Or you could just beat him and not care about his feelings towards you. Or you could get beaten for caring about how he feels about you. Martial arts people are made fun of, not held in reverence and fear.

That's unfortunately true in some cases, although I haven't met that many people who outwardly mock and poke fun of people doing martial arts. Also, it's a bit of a negative view on martial arts in general, I find the majority of people are more interested when they find out about people training to a high degree in a martial art, but I do agree that people are not generally scared of martial artists or hold them in reverance.
 

Cyriacus

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First, to Chris, yeah, im not a Musashi follower. That kind of literature doesnt interest me, so i lack experience in interpreting it :)

That's unfortunately true in some cases, although I haven't met that many people who outwardly mock and poke fun of people doing martial arts. Also, it's a bit of a negative view on martial arts in general, I find the majority of people are more interested when they find out about people training to a high degree in a martial art, but I do agree that people are not generally scared of martial artists or hold them in reverance.

Yeah.
 

Balrog

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That's unfortunately true in some cases, although I haven't met that many people who outwardly mock and poke fun of people doing martial arts. Also, it's a bit of a negative view on martial arts in general, I find the majority of people are more interested when they find out about people training to a high degree in a martial art, but I do agree that people are not generally scared of martial artists or hold them in reverance.
What annoys the hell out of me is when people find out that I am an instructor. Almost the first words out of their mouth are some variation of "Oh, don't hit me". Yeah, lady, like I woke up this morning and decided to go into the grocery store today and find you and whip your butt.

I don't think we should be held in reverence, but I do think that we deserve some basic level of respect. We've spent a significant portion of our lives training to get to where we are and we continue to train and improve every day. Does your lawyer do that, lady? Or your doctor? Or your car mechanic? They might get 15-20 hours a year of "continuing education". We get that in a week.

Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now. :soapbox:
 

pgsmith

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What annoys the hell out of me is when people find out that I am an instructor. Almost the first words out of their mouth are some variation of "Oh, don't hit me". Yeah, lady, like I woke up this morning and decided to go into the grocery store today and find you and whip your butt.

I don't think we should be held in reverence, but I do think that we deserve some basic level of respect. We've spent a significant portion of our lives training to get to where we are and we continue to train and improve every day. Does your lawyer do that, lady? Or your doctor? Or your car mechanic? They might get 15-20 hours a year of "continuing education". We get that in a week.

Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now. :soapbox:

That just means you're dedicated to your hobby. I've known sculptors, ball players, and marathon runners that put more time into their hobbies than most martial artists I've met. Obsession doesn't command respect. Who you are and what you do is what commands respect. Personally, I don't feel that being upset at someone else's ignorance of your hobby commands respect either, but that's just my opinion.
 

Xue Sheng

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Martial arts people are made fun of, not held in reverence and fear.

Not Miyamoto Muhashi in his day, not a whole lot of people made fun of him. It wa sa quick and easy way to get yourself killed

Or you could just beat him and not care about his feelings towards you. Or you could get beaten for caring about how he feels about you.

Basically that is what Musashi said. He is talking about understanding your opponent so you can defeat him
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Maybe it is me but I don't get that kind of response. People are interested, curious if they find out and very respectful. Then again it could just be what I project. I don't know.


Now onto Miyomoto Musahshi. He wrote some pretty interesting things. The Book of Five Rings is some thing that I feel every martial practitioner should read. However, I also think people should look carefully beyond the writing and look at this man's history. I feel that to call him a saint is pretty ridiculous. He was great with a sword by all counts but not very saintly! Unless you consider dueling and killing people saintly. I would characterize Miyomoto Mushashi as someone who was good at what he did, maybe even obsessed to a point that it ruined a normal life for him and then in the end he was coping or trying to deal with that when he was a hermit and writing. On many levels he is someone to be pitied for the life he lead. I know this is not the norm in peoples perception of him and maybe I have been influenced by a few trusted Japanese instructors but in the end this is my opinion! For what it's worth!
 

Xue Sheng

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Maybe it is me but I don't get that kind of response. People are interested, curious if they find out and very respectful. Then again it could just be what I project. I don't know.


Now onto Miyomoto Musahshi. He wrote some pretty interesting things. The Book of Five Rings is some thing that I feel every martial practitioner should read. However, I also think people should look carefully beyond the writing and look at this man's history. I feel that to call him a saint is pretty ridiculous. He was great with a sword by all counts but not very saintly! Unless you consider dueling and killing people saintly. I would characterize Miyomoto Mushashi as someone who was good at what he did, maybe even obsessed to a point that it ruined a normal life for him and then in the end he was coping or trying to deal with that when he was a hermit and writing. On many levels he is someone to be pitied for the life he lead. I know this is not the norm in peoples perception of him and maybe I have been influenced by a few trusted Japanese instructors but in the end this is my opinion! For what it's worth!

Strongly agree.

I will admit I never looked at Miyomoto Musahshi as someone to be pitied for the life he lead, but you do make a good point, thank you for that.
 

Transk53

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pgsmith said:
Personally, I don't feel that being upset at someone else's ignorance of your hobby commands respect either, but that's just my opinion

One I agree with!

Kind of on topic, but kind of off, I recently read "child of vengeance by Chris Kirk. Fiction maybe, but Musashi Miyamoto was brought to life in a that makes sense.
 

Cyriacus

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Not Miyamoto Muhashi in his day, not a whole lot of people made fun of him. It wa sa quick and easy way to get yourself killed
It aint his day any more. :)
Basically that is what Musashi said. He is talking about understanding your opponent so you can defeat him
Im cool with that. Its the idea of analyzing your particular opponent as he attacks you i take issue to :)
 

Chris Parker

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Basically he said to walk over and kill the other guy.

Well..... sometimes you make them walk to you first....

First, to Chris, yeah, im not a Musashi follower. That kind of literature doesnt interest me, so i lack experience in interpreting it :)

It's cool that you're not a "Musashi follower" (whatever that means...), but honestly, if you're going to comment on something like the Gorin no Sho without knowing about it, and instead to give what comes across as a rather dismissive appraisal (which missed entirely what was said), I'm gonna pick it up.

Now onto Miyomoto Musahshi. He wrote some pretty interesting things. The Book of Five Rings is some thing that I feel every martial practitioner should read. However, I also think people should look carefully beyond the writing and look at this man's history. I feel that to call him a saint is pretty ridiculous. He was great with a sword by all counts but not very saintly! Unless you consider dueling and killing people saintly. I would characterize Miyomoto Mushashi as someone who was good at what he did, maybe even obsessed to a point that it ruined a normal life for him and then in the end he was coping or trying to deal with that when he was a hermit and writing. On many levels he is someone to be pitied for the life he lead. I know this is not the norm in peoples perception of him and maybe I have been influenced by a few trusted Japanese instructors but in the end this is my opinion! For what it's worth!

A couple of things here, Brian. First, thanks for the welcome back... life's been a little... disruptive... for a while. Now, onto the topic at hand. I'm not sure that I'd say that every martial practitioner should read Gorin no Sho... sure, most can get something out of it, but few will get what is actually meant. The main reason is why the book was written in the first place... it wasn't for anyone outside of the tradition. In fact, it wasn't even for many inside it... it was specifically for one student, to give them a deeper appreciation of the strategies and tactics of his hyoho... if you're not following Musashi's Hyoho, then it has limited value, honestly. Many passages are incredibly specific to parts of the Ryu (waza, riai etc), and not to others... some downright argue with other approaches/hyoho found in other ryu-ha. So sure, read it, find what you can... but unless you train Musashi's hyoho, you won't see what is being said.

Next, the idea of referring to Musashi as Kensei (Sword Saint) isn't a reference to a "saint" in a Western/Christian form... quite separate, really... and to try to equate the two due more to a lack of proper translation within English I feel is a bit unfair. In the sense the term is used, it refers to someone whose skill and application of the weapon approached what we might call superhuman (beyond the normal skill level attainable by most people). And, in that sense, he most certainly is a "saint"... along with Tsukahara Bokuden, Itto Ittosai, Kamizume Ise no Kami, and many others. Their skill was considered almost "divine"... which is the nuance the English affectation of "saint" really refers to. Mind you, when it comes to bloodshed and violence, many Western saints have a claim as well... such as Saint Louis (embarking on two Crusades in his life), Saint George (who was a Roman soldier), Saint Ignatius (founder of the Jesuit movement, it's first Supreme General, and a career soldier who founded his movement based on readings while recovering from battle wounds), Joan of Arc (yep, a saint as well... and that was a lady who didn't shy away from swinging steel!), ooh, Saint Vladimir was a good one... polygamist, partaker of human sacrifice, and more... Saint Moses, a former slave released after suspicion of theft and murder, he would go on to lead a violent gang. Seriously, these are the saints here! Why doesn't Musashi fit in? Oh, yeah... no conversion to Christianity....

I'd also argue against the idea that he was "coping or trying to deal with" his former life living as a hermit... that doesn't really fit with the descriptions of his motivations and movements. There is, in fact, no indication of any such feelings in his writings, the stories passed down, or anything else. Hell, in the introduction to Gorin no Sho, he states that after he had his final duel (at the age of 29, against Sasaki Kojiro), he reflected on why he'd managed to be successful so consistently, and determined that it wasn't due to skill on his part... so he devoted himself to a deeper study. He didn't shy away from his past, he sought to improve upon the experiences and lessons he gained. As ever, you're more than welcome to your opinion, but I haven't seen any evidence that actually supports it, so I'm not sure who you've been listening to...

Not Miyamoto Muhashi in his day, not a whole lot of people made fun of him. It wa sa quick and easy way to get yourself killed

It aint his day any more. :)

No, but the principles still stand. Having a basic understanding of social convention, appropriate etiquette, manners, what could set off a confrontation, and what could avoid one, are still important. In a way, that is where a lot of the etiquette in martial arts stems from... the particulars might change from culture to culture, but the lessons are consistent. If you don't believe me, head up to a biker gang and call them all fairies, then ask them if their beards tickle when they kiss each other... see if the "day" has really changed that much.

Basically that is what Musashi said. He is talking about understanding your opponent so you can defeat him

Im cool with that. Its the idea of analyzing your particular opponent as he attacks you i take issue to :)

Hmm. Honestly, my friend, that is possibly one of the most short-sighted and (well, I am being blunt here) ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. What do you think martial techniques are based on? Hope? All martial approaches are based on analyzing the opponent... whether sporting systems, where you develop a range of counters and attacks (and, in the higher levels, study the records and tapes of your opponents... why do you think that they do that?), self defence systems, where the approach is designed around an understanding of common attacks, high probabilities, realistic scenarios and so forth, or traditional arts, which are applied against (commonly) stylized attacks to teach methods of identifying particular attacks, to the point where you can readily analyze them and respond powerfully and immediately. You might want to start reading a little broader... Sun Tzu, for instance (If you know yourself, but not your enemy, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know the enemy, but not yourself, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you have no hope of victory, and if you know yourself, and know your enemy, you will not be defeated, even if you face 10,000 battles). Same thing.
 

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I recently read a scholarly work on Musashi's life and the author stated that in reality Musashi was simply trying to land a gig as a swordsmanship instructor with a wealth lord. Which...bizarre as it seems...he was never successful in accomplishing.

Many of the duels (and the hype associated with them) were similar to PR efforts we see today. It was implied that some (if not "many") of his duels were Cherry Picked affairs and Musashi used everything from psychological warfare (arriving late) to almost blatant "cheating". Although in a duel to the death "cheating" isn't the most accurate word to use. :)
 

chrispillertkd

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I recently read a scholarly work on Musashi's life and the author stated that in reality Musashi was simply trying to land a gig as a swordsmanship instructor with a wealth lord. Which...bizarre as it seems...he was never successful in accomplishing.

Many of the duels (and the hype associated with them) were similar to PR efforts we see today. It was implied that some (if not "many") of his duels were Cherry Picked affairs and Musashi used everything from psychological warfare (arriving late) to almost blatant "cheating". Although in a duel to the death "cheating" isn't the most accurate word to use. :)

From from something to critisize, the use of psychological warfare and "cheating" (whatever that may be in the context of a duel) are probably quite wise if one is interested in surviving. Others can speak much to the norms involved in dueling during the time period but, if I am not mistaken, several koryu include teachings not just on physical techniques but things such as strategy, tactics, how to put a castle under seige, what kind of terrain to have your own stronghold situated in, etc. The more modern martial arts, IMO, would do well to recapture a bit of that mindset (or at least modern martial artists, if styles as a whole aren't going to).

Out of curiosity, which book on Musashi were you reading? I read Kenji Tokitsu's Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings some time ago and some of what you say in your post sounds similar to what is in that book.

Pax,

Chris
 

Tgace

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From from something to critisize, the use of psychological warfare and "cheating" (whatever that may be in the context of a duel) are probably quite wise if one is interested in surviving. Others can speak much to the norms involved in dueling during the time period but, if I am not mistaken, several koryu include teachings not just on physical techniques but things such as strategy, tactics, how to put a castle under seige, what kind of terrain to have your own stronghold situated in, etc. The more modern martial arts, IMO, would do well to recapture a bit of that mindset (or at least modern martial artists, if styles as a whole aren't going to).

Out of curiosity, which book on Musashi were you reading? I read Kenji Tokitsu's Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings some time ago and some of what you say in your post sounds similar to what is in that book.

Pax,

Chris

You are correct Sir!

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2
 

Cyriacus

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It's cool that you're not a "Musashi follower" (whatever that means...), but honestly, if you're going to comment on something like the Gorin no Sho without knowing about it, and instead to give what comes across as a rather dismissive appraisal (which missed entirely what was said), I'm gonna pick it up.

It means i tried to read the book of five rings and wasnt interested. :)

Hmm. Honestly, my friend, that is possibly one of the most short-sighted and (well, I am being blunt here) ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. What do you think martial techniques are based on? Hope? All martial approaches are based on analyzing the opponent... whether sporting systems, where you develop a range of counters and attacks (and, in the higher levels, study the records and tapes of your opponents... why do you think that they do that?), self defence systems, where the approach is designed around an understanding of common attacks, high probabilities, realistic scenarios and so forth, or traditional arts, which are applied against (commonly) stylized attacks to teach methods of identifying particular attacks, to the point where you can readily analyze them and respond powerfully and immediately. You might want to start reading a little broader... Sun Tzu, for instance (If you know yourself, but not your enemy, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know the enemy, but not yourself, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you have no hope of victory, and if you know yourself, and know your enemy, you will not be defeated, even if you face 10,000 battles). Same thing.

Im not sure which of us youre addressing, but if youre addressing me, i guess i just dont see how the time youre being beaten senseless, stabbed, or shot is the time to try and analyze someone, as opposed to doing something about it. Like you just said, or at least what i got from it, thats what training is for. I feel a miscommunication may have taken place here.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Hi Chris,

Welcome back! I think I will listen to some Japanese teachers and their personal lessons on Mushashi! Thanks and you are entitled to your opinion as well since neither of us or anyone else was back in his day and we only have his writing to look at.

When you look at Mushashi in the end he was an guy, writing, living the hermit life, failed to get that gig as Tgace wrote. Basically had no family to speak of, etc. Pretty sad really! Was he great at what he did? Yes by all accounts and his own written word. Did he maybe obsess a bit and that obsession threw off the balance in his life? Probably! When you look at him you see someone unbalanced in life. Sure he was great with the sword but unbalanced in life because of his obsession. This obsession probably caused his failure at becoming an instructor for some wealthy lord. If you read the account of his life I wouldn't hire him to work for me either. I know this is not a popular thought on the "sword saint" (yes I understand how it is used) but if you take a look at his whole life there is some loss of balance. That loss of balance is why I referred to earlier that I pitied him. I will bet his life on many levels to him was disappointing. (no wife, no kid's, no family, no job and probably lots of guilt and regret in the end)

Having said the above the Book of Five Rings offers some thing for a martial practitioner to read. From understanding a bit about the importance of psychology and using it to your advantage as well as not allowing your obsession to consume you! Balance is important after all! In that he did some thing very good for us!

Maybe not the most popular take on Mushashi but definitely one to make you think!
 

Xue Sheng

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Hmm. Honestly, my friend, that is possibly one of the most short-sighted and (well, I am being blunt here) ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. What do you think martial techniques are based on? Hope? All martial approaches are based on analyzing the opponent... whether sporting systems, where you develop a range of counters and attacks (and, in the higher levels, study the records and tapes of your opponents... why do you think that they do that?), self defence systems, where the approach is designed around an understanding of common attacks, high probabilities, realistic scenarios and so forth, or traditional arts, which are applied against (commonly) stylized attacks to teach methods of identifying particular attacks, to the point where you can readily analyze them and respond powerfully and immediately. You might want to start reading a little broader... Sun Tzu, for instance (If you know yourself, but not your enemy, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know the enemy, but not yourself, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you have no hope of victory, and if you know yourself, and know your enemy, you will not be defeated, even if you face 10,000 battles). Same thing.

Depending on who that was directed at I may take offense...or I may not.
 

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