"Mental Toughness" and the martial arts.

[CaffeineKing]

Hello everyone!!

My first posting here, so please be gentle.

I'm not much of a martial artist, I'm afraid. A long backstory which I won't bore you with here, but I am a psychologist (well, I will be when I finish my PhD in a couple of months). My academic interests include how people cope with chronic - long-term - conditions: such as back-pain, tinnitus, deafness, arthritis and so on. And one of the variables I'm working on is "Mental Toughness". So while I find this site an interesting and friendly one, I have a question which I hope will develop into an interesting thread. Mental toughness. What is it? Is it what I'd call a "trait" - something that never changes, or is it "state" - something that alters almost constantly, depending on mood/situation. I'm going to use the good old psychological cop-out of saying that I think it's somewhere in the middle.

Anyway, keeping on track - my question. I'm going to assume that unlike poor little me, the majority of you are either well-versed in one of many martial arts, or getting there - whether at speed or slowly but stubbornly. So because of that, I'm going to guess that many people here are more robust, more towards the mentally tougher end of the scale. Here - finally! - is my question.

Qu: Do you think that martial arts promote mental toughness? Or do you think that success in the martial arts requires mental toughness and you either have it or you don't - and drop out? Does this vary between arts/styles? It's a short step from my research - mainly coping with tinnitus - so I think it's a very interesting question, one I've never been able to discuss with such a wide variety of knowledgable people in one go. Looking forward to your views.

Caffeine King.

PS. Anyone from Yorkshire?

 

[terryl965]

To be in Martial Art you have to have some mental toughness and during your training it either grows or you dismines like a glass of water. Over time the water will evaporate if it does not get filled, just like a MA'ers if the desire dos'ent get filled time and time again they spirit like the water slowly evaporates, at such they leave MA,

 

[Miles]

Does the MA develop mental toughness? I think so if properly nurtured (BTW Terry, very nice analogy!). The instructor needs to know how, how hard, and when to push and when to let up.

I went through post-grad school thinking, "this is pretty easy compared to getting a black belt."

Miles

 

[relytjj]

I do think martial arts promote mental toughness. I don't think that they require it. I know a few black belts a my school who I wouldn't categorize as being mentally tough, but then again I may not be able to adequately judge that trait. I think self confidence is more important than mental toughness in having success (i.e. obtaining a black belt) in martial arts.

I would change my statement above if we were talking about competing martial arts sparring on a high level such as national, international, ufc, pride...etc. I wouldn't consider mental toughness a required trait of a top forms competitor. I imagine most of them are, it just isn't required to be successful in that venture.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

CaffineKing welcome! :wavey: It's nice to see you on the boards, and as for your first post it's a great topic, so thanks for bringing it to us!

Like Miles I agree that earning a black belt was far more difficult and challenging then a Master's Degree. The Master's Degree was a lot of work, and required a firm commitment and was at times a brain drain. It required discipline as well but not necessarily complete mental toughness. The physical component was missing, and the survival instinct is not tapped into here and that to me is what makes earning a black belt require mental "toughness" in terms of staying the course and not throwing in the towel. Studying karate to me does not require complete mental toughness on a daily basis, sparring comes closer, but passing the black belt exam most certainly did require sustained mental toughness.

This Depends on the type of grading of course. In some schools it is assumed that your work all along, and time in, is proof enough that you are worthy of a promotion. The grading in some schools is short and does not test the body and mind in this same way. This is not right or wrong to me, just different. In my school we are pushed to our limits, to the point of physical and mental exhaustion where your instinctual drives must take over or you face and succumb to failure. The test takes place in your mind where you must constantly tell yourself to just do it, to not give up. This is as close to reality as we can come. For a real test of mental toughness I think of interviews I saw with some Tsunami survivors. One woman made a conscious decision to die quickly, she believed she was not mentally tough enough for the task of survival so she tried to quicken her death by purposefully swallowing lots of water and then was miraculously swept up by a wave and thrown to shore and survived. She gave up mentally, but lived to tell. Others told of long difficult struggles of hanging onto trees and being trapped in buildings and really fighting for their lives. These people to me showed their mental toughness. They were tested and survived because of it.

So I think martial arts both promotes and requires mental toughness. Hopefully we never have to put it to a real life test though, but I think having studied martial arts I would fight for my life in any situation, because of what I've learned and done - I have proven to myself that I could.

MJ :asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

<glances over at Ceicei> :idunno: deafness is chronic? Heh that's a new one on me...

For me; Martial Arts promotes confidence which attributes itself to mental toughness. There's been several threads about confidence and the ability to be willing to actually hit/hurt someone with something that we've learned over the years. You want to call it toughness? You mean the ability to handle stressful situations? Like an actual street/bar fight or an assault in/out of your home? To handle those situations without "losing one's head'? Again, I think the toughness lends itself to/from the confidence (and the amount of confidence) we each have in our own respective abilities. The "toughness" grows over time. With some people it can grow too much.
Because toughness is also an attitude in-of-itself.
You get the street-wise palooka who "thinks" they're tough because they either know MA, or are armed in some form or another. So as ego giveth some other stronger palooka is gonna take it away by beating them at their own game.
Or you can get a young martial artist who achieved their black-belt in several different arts and is now Mr. Bad Azz and isn't skeerd to take on any "master" of any Dojo. That's being full of it, not being tough, just acting like it and looking the fool. And of course one who acts/thinks like that isn't being a "true" martialist (imo).
Personally, I've been exposed to a-lot of stuff I'd rather have not seen/experienced. Now-a-days in stressful situations, i.e. coming upon a car accident and the EMS hasn't arrived, or a rescue situation or defusing a potential fight between two friends or whatever!... I find myself calmly handling the situation. Now, an hour or two later I might be a (mental/emotional) wreck because it all caught up with me, depending on what it was and how long and how intense it was. Is that mental toughness?
A person confronts me in a threatening manner... my "toughness" will depend upon the amount of information my brain has received about the situation. The surroundings, the size of the antagonist, the immediacy of the situation, etc. etc. and my own confidence in my abilities to handle said situation.
You just don't know.
I've learned that no-one man/woman can accurately predict how he/she will react in any situation at any time. ... no matter how tough they are.
:asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

As with life in general, conflict makes you tougher and more resilient but you probably know that. In Taekwondo, conflict is assured one way or the other. I joined thinking this is a nice physical activity with my kids. I really thought I would always stay a white belt because yikes, I don't want to even try to break that board to get to yellow. But that was not meant to be, as my instructor insisted that I too, try to break a board at a fair demo, two months later. And it goes from there in little increments. Now if I get bruises from sparring, I don't realize that I got hurt until much later. I remember thinking as a red belt that I don't like falling, grappling (not usual in TKD curriculum) and now I want to get better at it. After awhile the mental toughness falls in line with what you have achieved. You know what your body and mind is capable of doing. Confidence makes you tough but hopefully not foolish.

In trying to get a women's class together, I realize there are not a lot of women willing to even try. That is the biggest obstacle, the first try. They think they have to be as good physically as a twenty year old, not as good as they can be. Just this week, there was a woman who had flexibility problems with a required break, a high spin heel-her first hard break. She also has a back problem and was in tears with just practice from the frustration and pain. Three black belts all told her that we had all been there and she will get it if she perseveres. Unfortunately this is not true for everyone, as I have seen some quit because of physical problems with their bodies or when their hope for black belt dissipates as Terry said. We have a 50+ woman who is blind and nearly deaf who is a yellow belt. She performed recently in a tournament doing form and breaking. She did her best and that is all that can be asked, but will she get to black. Highly unlikely, but she will hopefully continue and expand her horizons.

For me it was a mental and physical problem to get over to get to second dan. Don't know if its wise to try to get to third as I will be 56 next year and my test is the same as a twenty year old. My master isn't giving me any "breaks" for age or disability-bad knee. But it still is in increments and as I go forward and learn, there is still that possibility. That is what it is all about ....hope and how to keep the fire burning. TW

 

[CaffeineKing]

Thanks for the prompt replies everyone.

To Terry - an interesting metaphor, that glass of water. There's some research here that looked at Mental Toughness before/after the University Mountain Climbing club went on a trip to the icy peaks of Scotland. When they came back, they were "mentally tougher" and performed better at certain tasks. But the effects fade with time.

To Miles and Relytjj - I agree. Even if we consider that a black belt is only the first step, it's a worthy goal as it demands good old hard work and effort. As the saying goes: "If you want it badly enough, you'll get it." My PhD is hard enough (!) but I hope to return to Aikido sooner rather than later.

mj-hi-yah - Thank you for the welcome. Your points regarding the Tsunami are very, very strong ones. It's all very well and good turning up the the dojo (or whatever) twice a week and doing your best but could any of us handle it if a 30ft tidal wave came crashing into the car park? (See MACarver for more of the same). Thankfully, most of us will never know.

MACarver - more good points. As we know, "Mental Toughness" is a vague concept. It means different things to different people. It wraps us poor science types into a knot trying to explain it consistently. Still, the theory I work from breaks Mental Toughness down into six clear (?) categories. Enjoyment of Challenge; Commitment; Control of Emotion; Control over own life; Confidence in own abilities; and finally, Confidence in interpersonal relationships. Add 'em all up, and there's your score. I think that some of these are very important in martial arts (and many other things besides). Some probably aren't, but are good to have at any rate.

CK.

PS. Deafness is chronic (i.e. longlasting and not going to change). Sudden hearing loss is the reason I gave up on aikido, unfortunately. The hearing aids get in the way. lol. Taking them out, putting them in, etc. I'll be back one day though, less self-conscious these days after all. Age does that to a man! [PS. Absolutely no offence taken, btw]. That's it though, isn't it? Some people cope with the most horrendous things happening to them. The rest of us do what we can.

 

[CaffeineKing]

And TigerWoman, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Adept]

I believe mental toughness is simply the ability to cope. With just about anything. Some people can take almost anything in their stride, staying cool and calm no matter what. Some people freak out if they are five minutes late meeting their friends for coffee. Most people are somewhere in between. I think the ability to cope is definately a trait, as you put it, but that the effects of said ability are mitigated by certain factors, which give it elements of a state.

 

[Paul Genge]

The ability to not like oneself too much is necessary for combat. By this I mean that discomfort or negative thoughts should not cause us to give in. Often in real conflict it is the opponent that keeps going no matter what that wins the day.

Exercises can be used to improve the toughness of a person. These exercises are in general specific to the area you are trying to improve. Carrying out any exercise that pushes you to your limit then keeps going for a time determined by either an outside source or another person is going to help you realise your true potential.

There are also exercises within the Russian Marial Art I study that teach us about the true nature of pain and how you can cope with it. In one exercise the student lies on the floor. Four people then get hold of his arms and legs and twist them independently to cause pain. A fifth person then walks on, slaps and hits the student causing more pain and importantly fear.

What it is important to understand that fear causes tension in the body. Tension aslo causes pain from the joint locks. It forms a vicious cycle. What this exercise teaches us is first how to use pain to remove pain and tension. Second the sensory overload means that we cannot pay attention to all the sources of pain. We forget some of them and the tension then disipates of it's own accord. Soon after the student notices this occurring and then realises his own reserves.

There are other exercises relating to the fear that is caused when the breathing is restricted or stopped and how to deal physically and mentally with strikes.

By the way I am just over the border in Lancashire.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[mj-hi-yah]

mj-hi-yah - Thank you for the welcome.

You're welcome!

The theory I work from breaks Mental Toughness down into six clear (?) categories. Enjoyment of Challenge; Commitment; Control of Emotion; Control over own life; Confidence in own abilities; and finally, Confidence in interpersonal relationships. Add 'em all up, and there's your score. I think that some of these are very important in martial arts (and many other things besides). Some probably aren't, but are good to have at any rate.

This is very interesting. I'd love to hear your theory as to how each one may equate to martial arts.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

The ability to not like oneself too much is necessary for combat. By this I mean that discomfort or negative thoughts should not cause us to give in. Often in real conflict it is the opponent that keeps going no matter what that wins the day.

Exercises can be used to improve the toughness of a person. These exercises are in general specific to the area you are trying to improve. Carrying out any exercise that pushes you to your limit then keeps going for a time determined by either an outside source or another person is going to help you realise your true potential.

There are also exercises within the Russian Marial Art I study that teach us about the true nature of pain and how you can cope with it. In one exercise the student lies on the floor. Four people then get hold of his arms and legs and twist them independently to cause pain. A fifth person then walks on, slaps and hits the student causing more pain and importantly fear.

What it is important to understand that fear causes tension in the body. Tension aslo causes pain from the joint locks. It forms a vicious cycle. What this exercise teaches us is first how to use pain to remove pain and tension. Second the sensory overload means that we cannot pay attention to all the sources of pain. We forget some of them and the tension then disipates of it's own accord. Soon after the student notices this occurring and then realises his own reserves.

There are other exercises relating to the fear that is caused when the breathing is restricted or stopped and how to deal physically and mentally with strikes.

By the way I am just over the border in Lancashire.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

Wow what you describe here seems scary, but I have experienced some Systema and understand now that pain is fear leaving your body. It sounds like this exercise you are relating really comes much closer to building mental toughness over time than anything else I've seen or heard of. It worries me, because it sounds extreme, but I imagine it must work or you and others would not return. Relaxation really is the key, but I don't know if I'm brave enough to try that though. I respect that you are able to go through that willingly. :asian:

 

[OC Kid]

I dont think you can learn "mental toughness" learning MA. What people have is desire and love of the art.

If they really love it they will learn to work through their injuries and disabilities.

I for one have taught people in wheel chairs MA.

I have taught developmentaly disabled people

I recently saw a guy with one arm fighting Muay Thai on TV on one a 5 round bout.

So in conclusion and to avoid a lot of babbling by me :>).

The MA dont develope it in people..rather it gives a venue to show the individuals mental toughness which they already possess.

 

[Brother John]

Qu: Do you think that martial arts promote mental toughness? Or do you think that success in the martial arts requires mental toughness and you either have it or you don't - and drop out? Does this vary between arts/styles? It's a short step from my research - mainly coping with tinnitus - so I think it's a very interesting question, one I've never been able to discuss with such a wide variety of knowledgable people in one go. Looking forward to your views.
Caffeine King.
PS. Anyone from Yorkshire?

Interesting post: thank you.

I think that the martial arts don't "give" mental toughness, but they do require it if you are going to be in the arts for any length of time. BUT: Though some bring more or less 'mental toughness' with them.... when their practice requires it, they Can 'foster' it. The training calls on us to dig down deep to persevere, and in that 'digging' we can call forth and cultivate what the Japanese arts call "Fudo-Shin" or the "immoveable Spirit"... a sense of unstoppable persevereance and fortitude to overcome and weather anything that we must with a certain singleness of purpose.

Check here for a little jot I did on "Fudoshin": http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=255357&postcount=10

Hope this helps!
Your Brother
John

 

[Pittbull]

personally I think MA can develope the mental toughness that already exists in that person but I also believe it is more about that persons desire to train and over come the obstictales infront of them whether it be mental or phyical

 

[Eldritch Knight]

To expand on a point, I invite you to take a look at kendo, the Japanese way of the sword. Unlike other martial arts, the entirety of kendo's curriculum consists of eight attacks spread out over 4 very specific target areas (the top of the head, the gloves, the throat, and the abdomen). Scoring a point in kendo requires absolute precision in the movement of the shinai (kendo's weapon - a wooden sword), a commited spirit (fudoushin, as brother john mentioned), and a body that moves with this spirit. If any one of these elements is missing, the judges will not give a point. Additionally, because of the extremely precise nature of a valid strike, all one's opponent needs to do is to move their sword a few inches to block it. Merely hitting the opponent, let alone actually scoring a point is very, very difficult. As such, the majority of kendo practice is repeating these very precise, rote motions tens of thousands of times until they become second nature. Most people simply give up before this point, and it is a consistent statistic that kendo classes usually maintain about a 10% retention rate amongst its new students. One has to love the art so much that they stick with it despite having to perform very difficult and boring strikes hundreds of times each day without visible signs of progression. To me, this is a sign of strong mental toughness.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mental toughness is something that is learned, but also something that some people bring into the Martial Arts from their own environment. A person may come in with little self esteem and not really be willing to push themselves but a good instructor can nurture what they have and by gently pushing the endurance (both physical and mental) increase it.

Some students may be physically in good or great shape but if the instructor takes them beyond their boundaries, ever increasing their limits, the student learns to push themselves further and further.

The learning how to NOT stop when hurt and learning to go on when you think you can't is something that can be instilled in students.

Now the whole thing really depends on the student (do they or are they willing to push themselves), and the instructor ( dose he know how to get a student to go beyond their normal limits), and sometimes on the students class mates(do they encourage ).

 

[MJS]

Yes, training in the arts, will help to build more toughness and confidence. I think that is one of the main reasons people sign up. Of course, this will show in some people faster than it does in others.

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

Mental Toughness.

First, its term:



Is the term is to suggest the preparation in coping with stress or anxiety?

If so, people can develop this without martial arts.



Is the term meaning to suggest a type of training to cope with stress or anxiety??

If so, anything, per a hobby, or anything to focus on, will relieve stress or anxiety, could be this training.



Is the term applying to have the ability to stand firm upon a fight situation?

Then, it will never be known if such training would work until the "moment of truth"



I cannot fully agree that "mental toughness" could be taught and learned by everyone. Why else would there be with psychological disorders and people on medications?



As of the moment, I have a student whom is a college professor of Eastern Philosophy, with a specialty in Buddhism. He cannot get aggressive or mentally attune to spar. I am told by he, and those who know him well, that he was always a person with a non-aggressive demeanor and a person whom despised physical conflict.

Can such a person, actually be taught how to change his mentality?