McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts

[Rumy73]

Thanks for all the great insight in the last topic I started on McDojos.

A couple interesting things I took away:

Non-contact -- Some strong feelings against such schools. I think there is a place for this style of teaching to a point. Learning to control power is important, but somethings can only be learned by actually doing? Such as developing timing and distance when facing a moving target who is trying to hit you.

Price does not indicate quality -- Good and bad schools can both be expensive. Gear, testing fees, et cetera. Even within a clearly profit driven school, talented students can arise. Why shouldn't a master profit from his knowledge?

What is Good Anyway? A school that teaches what it advertises is part of that group, I hope. If they are teaching what amounts to cardio karate or just having slug fests and that is what people want...??? Or is the standard about how it teaches the art? We seem divided a bit here.

Styles and Schools -- Both are similar to denominations and places of worship within a given faith, as in the way the elicit passionate praise or critical diatribe.

Parents and Children -- Clearly parents want their kids to learn something about the martial arts. Some are tepid about accepting the whole program. Schools react by "watering down the program." Kids are awarded black belts (topic for elsewhere) and think they are what exactly? Admittedly, I belong to a church and a political party of which I do not totally buy the whole program. I also have a 7 year old in a TKD school. Lots of belt colors and tests, but I see it as a start. Let him experience and grow. Mastery will come if and when he commits to study.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Wow, thats a really good summary actually, thanks!

 

[Gorilla]

Nice summary!

My tow cents!!! It is a overused term thrown around and used to defame schools/styles...with little consideration for the facts!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Good summary but basically you have summarized what is freely availed all over the web and has been for a while now all you need is a little webfu

McDojo

McDojos are schools that are run and owned for the purpose of making money. Typically you are able to get a black belt in less than 2-3 years, and you are usually guranteed success on the black belt test. These schools charge outrageous amounts of money, have extensive contracts, and are sometimes cult like.

A McDojo is a school that teaches a watered-down and impractical form of martial arts in the name of making money. They place the importance of profit well ahead of teaching anything realistic or credible in terms of self-defense, and are dangerous is the aspect that they send unprepared & often over confident students into a world thinking they can fight when in actuality they have no real fighting skills. Often McDojos teach a lot of bullshido, which is a term used to define deception, fraud, and lies in terms of martial arts.

McDojo is a pejorative term (in the same vein as “McMansion” and "McChurch") referring to martial arts academies (generally located in the Western world) which, rather than being honestly committed to teaching students, are instead concerned primarily with amassing a profit. The means by which they do this is by pandering to Westerners’ stereotypes of martial arts and teaching a form thereof which, while usually highly visually impressive; is watered-down, impractical, and quick & easy to acquire a “Black Belt” in. These schools are effectively diploma mills for martial arts (and sometimes called "belt mills"), with unearned Black Belts taking the place of unearned Ph.D.s.

 

[Cyriacus]

Non-contact -- Some strong feelings against such schools. I think there is a place for this style of teaching to a point. Learning to control power is important, but somethings can only be learned by actually doing? Such as developing timing and distance when facing a moving target who is trying to hit you.

I can say from experience that it becomes a habit to either pull your shots, or range to be too far away to actually do anything. Its ok from time to time for a particular exercise, but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything. Theres no excuses for never practicing with contact.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can say from experience that it becomes a habit to either pull your shots, or range to be too far away to actually do anything. Its ok from time to time for a particular exercise, but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything. Theres no excuses for never practicing with contact.

hmm sometimes its useful if you just thought of a new technique, and want to see how it would flow before you actually try it on someone, but even then i generally use bob, unless it involves arm/leg blocks or locks, at which point, you need to study anyway..meant to come in defending no contact, and ended up just supporting you're "but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything" line. Oh well

 

[Cyriacus]

hmm sometimes its useful if you just thought of a new technique, and want to see how it would flow before you actually try it on someone, but even then i generally use bob, unless it involves arm/leg blocks or locks, at which point, you need to study anyway..meant to come in defending no contact, and ended up just supporting you're "but there are ways, such as reducing speed, to practice literally anything" line. Oh well

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Price does not indicate quality -- Good and bad schools can both be expensive. Gear, testing fees, et cetera. Even within a clearly profit driven school, talented students can arise. Why shouldn't a master profit from his knowledge?

This is a good point. I've seen some in the past scoff at the notion of teaching for free or very little. Ridicule teaching at a community center, the park or even a back yard. Yet some of the revered masters taught this way i.e. in their home, very small class, hard to get into, little or no money.

If a teacher is teaching something of value that students need/desire/seek then it doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter whether the instructor charges a fee or teaches for free. Whether it is a million dollar facility or someone's barn. Conversely, making a living teaching the martial arts isn't necessarily an indicator of a McDojang. Daniel Sullivan mentioned in one of these threads employing a sound business model. No issue there at all. Simply put, one instructor shouldn't look down on another because of the manner in which they wish to teach (in regards to where, how much is charged etc).

 

[granfire]

This is a good point. I've seen some in the past scoff at the notion of teaching for free or very little. Ridicule teaching at a community center, the park or even a back yard. Yet some of the revered masters taught this way i.e. in their home, very small class, hard to get into, little or no money.

If a teacher is teaching something of value that students need/desire/seek then it doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter whether the instructor charges a fee or teaches for free. Whether it is a million dollar facility or someone's barn. Conversely, making a living teaching the martial arts isn't necessarily an indicator of a McDojang. Daniel Sullivan mentioned in one of these threads employing a sound business model. No issue there at all. Simply put, one instructor shouldn't look down on another because of the manner in which they wish to teach (in regards to where, how much is charged etc).

you can't really win on the money front.

You charge nothing you are not valued, you charge enough to teach only, no day job required, you are money grabbing...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

you can't really win on the money front.

You charge nothing you are not valued, you charge enough to teach only, no day job required, you are money grabbing...

I've even heard siad of instructors who charge, but not a lot, and have another job, that they dont dedicate themselves enough to MA to teach..baloney!

 

[granfire]

I've even heard siad of instructors who charge, but not a lot, and have another job, that they dont dedicate themselves enough to MA to teach..baloney!

there you go....

 

[Earl Weiss]

FWIW, in the early 1970's my instructor was with Han Cha Kyo. One of TKD Pioneers. GM Han believed in non contact sparring. Primarily for 2 reasons. Decent safety equipment was not around when he started, and having started in the Military he said they could not risk getting banged up in training since they regularly went into combat where they'd get banged up for real.

IMNSHO I feel the downside of non contact training outweighed the puported pros. However, I would never say his schools and progeny were Mc Dojang material. They trained hard and took longer to promote than most anyone.

 

[Steve]

I don't begrudge a school owner a decent living. It's very possible for a school owner to make money AND have quality instruction. What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction. It may or may not be good training. McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.

It's a weird disconnect on this board, where many (most?) of the posters lean conservative, and in all other areas would champion capitalism and the right of a small business to make as much money as possible. But where martial arts are concerned, we tend to equate financial success with sub-par training. I don't agree. I think that sub-par training is a different animal entirely.

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't begrudge a school owner a decent living. It's very possible for a school owner to make money AND have quality instruction. What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction. It may or may not be good training. McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.

I see it as the other way - a McDojo is a place that churns out poor quality students (be it through too quick rank advancement or low standards). The price is less important to me. I liken it more to what I think of when I think of McDonalds, a chain restaurant that churns out low quality food. It doesn't matter that McDonalds charge low prices for food or that the franchise owners make a fortune, it's about the quality.

So for me, having low price, contract terms, marketing, franchising etc isn't a sign of being a McDojo, consistently producing low quality students is.

If a small school is run by an inexperienced instructor, I wouldn't consider that necessarily a McDojo as it doesn't qualify on the "churn" part of my concept. It's about throughput of low quality, not just low quality.

 

[Steve]

I see it as the other way - a McDojo is a place that churns out poor quality students (be it through too quick rank advancement or low standards). The price is less important to me. I liken it more to what I think of when I think of McDonalds, a chain restaurant that churns out low quality food. It doesn't matter that McDonalds charge low prices for food or that the franchise owners make a fortune, it's about the quality.

So for me, having low price, contract terms, marketing, franchising etc isn't a sign of being a McDojo, consistently producing low quality students is.

If a small school is run by an inexperienced instructor, I wouldn't consider that necessarily a McDojo as it doesn't qualify on the "churn" part of my concept. It's about throughput of low quality, not just low quality.

Fair enough. I don't agree. I think that poor instruction and schools churning out sub-par students is a different problem entirely.

 

[Earl Weiss]

..................What I'm getting at is that, at least for me, a McDojo has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction. It may or may not be good training. McDojo is more about the manner in which the business is run: marketing, fee schedules, franchising and all of the other ways in which a martial arts school makes money.

It's a weird disconnect on this board, where many (most?) of the posters lean conservative, and in all other areas would champion capitalism and the right of a small business to make as much money as possible.

I for one disagree with your concept / Definition of McDojo. That's OK reasonable minds can disagree. As with many things the discussion stall if the parties cannot agree on the definition. AFAIAC the McD analysis is with regard to the product being fast and easy. Something that is typically the antithesis for most athletic training, and is particularly true of MA.

 

[Steve]

I for one disagree with your concept / Definition of McDojo. That's OK reasonable minds can disagree. As with many things the discussion stall if the parties cannot agree on the definition. AFAIAC the McD analysis is with regard to the product being fast and easy. Something that is typically the antithesis for most athletic training, and is particularly true of MA.

Absolutely true, and this is a perfect example of how communication can stall if we don't confirm understanding.

When I think of McDonalds, the following words jump to mind: uniform, standardized, profit, franchise and growth. The same qualities that drive Starbucks or any other huge business chain are encapsulated in the business model of McDonalds.

And, I think it's important to recognize that McDonalds is clearly not a "GREAT" burger. It is also not the worst around. They exist and thrive as businesses precisely because they inhabit the sweet spot on a scale of quality vs accessibility. They create food that is very, very consistent from one restaurant to the next. When I used to do a lot of travelling, I'd always fill up my thermos at a McDonalds. Not because it was the best coffee. But because it was consistently good.

I guess my point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with McDonalds. Just as there is nothing inherently wrong with a McDojo. It is what it is, and provided that the instruction is solid and the commitments to the customers are delivered, it's just a business model. Simply put, you guys seem to me to be saying that a McDojo is essentially a fraudulent business, that the key characteristic of a McDojo is that they promise martial skill and don't deliver. McDonalds doesn't defraud their customers. You don't go into a McDonalds, order Duc L'Orange and get a Big Mac. You order a Big Mac and you get one. And it's the same Big Mac in Texas as it is in Washington. The chicken is the same. It's all the same, and it's exactly what you ordered.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I remember a long time ago being given a script to memorize as a salesman. They told us, "It doesn't work because it's canned. It's canned because it works."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I have one objection with this post, and it's here...

And, I think it's important to recognize that McDonalds is clearly not a "GREAT" burger. It is also not the worst around...When I used to do a lot of travelling, I'd always fill up my thermos at a McDonalds. Not because it was the best coffee. But because it was consistently good.

My problem with McDojos is that they're not consistent in the way McDonalds is, their teaching ability varies from school to school, even in the same franchise, and that unlike with McDonalds, not everyone knows its 'clearly not a great burger'. many people train at McDojos because when they heard the shpeal, it sounded like the greatest MA ever, and they're sucked into it with that expectation.

 

[Steve]

I have one objection with this post, and it's here...

My problem with McDojos is that they're not consistent in the way McDonalds is, their teaching ability varies from school to school, even in the same franchise, and that unlike with McDonalds, not everyone knows its 'clearly not a great burger'. many people train at McDojos because when they heard the shpeal, it sounded like the greatest MA ever, and they're sucked into it with that expectation.

What you're talking about sounds like fraud. Not all McDojos are owned by con artists, although some undoubtedly are.

I am going to risk speaking out of turn, so I'll gladly accept correction from those who know. But I've heard a lot of criticism of TKD schools who train Olympic style competitors. Let's just presume that it's ALL point sparring and Olympic style sparring and that they never, never, ever focus on Self Defense. If the competitors are earning rank in a way that is consistent within the style AND they are learning skills which allow them to be competitive with students from other schools AND they are happy AND their parents are happy AND the school owner is making a decent living, who gives a damn whether it meets someone else's arbitrary standards for what a martial art should be? (sorry for the run on sentence. )

So, that being said, the quality of the instruction and the qualifications of the instructor are independent of the business model.

To give an example, I know of some BJJ schools that are wildly successful and operate using what I would consider McDojo style business practices. I don't have any problems with it, and I wouldn't have any reservations at all recommending the instructors or the schools to a friend interested in BJJ. The owners are very good technicians and excellent coaches. They want to make a living doing what they love. More power to them, I say.

Conversely, I know a guy who isn't a McDojo, but who basically bought a black belt from a legit BJJ black belt. He runs a moderately successful school financially, but I'd never recommend him, because I question his integrity and also have reservations about the quality of his instruction.