Martial sacrilege (part 4)

[frank raud]

well yes, but its the long enough that's the issue, strangling someone to death isn't the quick thing you see in the movies, if you cut of the air supply for a couple of mins they will pass out, more than this and you can cause brain damage, actually killing them takes a good while longer, as breathing is an auto function, as soon as you take your hands of, it will start again unless they are,actual very dead

The question was does your art teach lethal techniques, and if so, at what point? Did I miss the requirement it happen instantaneously?

 

[Headhunter]

Any move used in a fight can cause life threatening Injuries. A punch to the head can kill someone and I'm sure some people will disagree on that but all you need to do is look at how many people have died in boxing to know punches can kill.

If those moves are in the system then yeah the instructor should teach them as his job is to teach but if the guy goes out and kills someone with that technique that's on the student not the teacher.

 

[JP3]

Any technique which causes any sort of impact can kill, if the impact happens with sufficient force to overwhelm the resistance of the targeted anatomy, and the targeted anatomy, if sufficiently thus damaged, will cause loss of life.

Similarly, any technique which causes a fall, therefore the impact delivered is from the sudden contact with the ground, see answer above.

Yes, we talk about this all the time, but from the point of view of training safely for our partners. An easy way to understand this is from judo. A simple shoulder or hip throw is relatively benign, when performed on the unresisting uke with tori/nage supporting the partner after the throw as the contact with the ground is made. To increase the... damage... I guess we could call it, you'd loft uke a bit more, then just let go and walk out from under. Or, you ... could... deliberately arrange the throw angles to land people on their head. Done on pavement/concrete, that's relatively brutal, I'd say.

Most of the other things int he aikido/judo toolkit end up of the maiming variety if one is forced to go that direction.

 

[jobo]

The question was does your art teach lethal techniques, and if so, at what point? Did I miss the requirement it happen instantaneously?

well if you are going to go down the it can take as long as you want route, then just holding someone's hands is fatal if you do it for long enough, about 7 days should do it

 

[drop bear]

well if you are going to go down the it can take as long as you want route, then just holding someone's hands is fatal if you do it for long enough, about 7 days should do it

Strangling is probably still the quickest way bare handed.

It would take ten minutes to beat someone to death.

 

[frank raud]

well if you are going to go down the it can take as long as you want route, then just holding someone's hands is fatal if you do it for long enough, about 7 days should do it

Why don't you help me and say what is to be considered a lethal technique, as chokes apparently aren't good enough for you. And I am aware of the difference between air or blood chokes.

 

[BrendanF]

Yes. I have. A number of times, and not from particularly powerful strikes.



Which is one of the least effective throat strikes imaginable.

You have seen people die from human trauma to the throat, a number of times? To be clear, I mean a person hitting another person in the throat - not strangulation or mechanical trauma.

The trachea doesn't break. The cartilage rings may collapse like a soda can, but not break. It takes a lot of power to collapse the trachea. However, this is not necessary and is not the goal of an effective throat strike.
The goal is to fracture the hyoid bone or the larynx.

The hyoid is tiny. And fragile. And very easy to fracture. Striking it requires a fair bit of precision, but it is quite easy to fracture. Ditto the larynx. Fragile enough that one or the other (more commonly the hyoid) is found to have been fracture in 10-15% those who are killed by strangulation, even though these constriction attacks are certainly not intended specifically to cause these fractures.

Sure - I was using casual terms. Yes, frequently broken in strangulation. But we're talking about strikes.

With ready access to the best medical care, hyoid fractures have a mortality rate of about 50% and laryngeal fractures about 80%. Without emergent intervention, the mortality rate for both is effectively 100%.
How do you define "unlikely?"

Are you talking about asphyxial deaths again? When laryngeal injury is correctly assessed and airways re secured mortality rate drops to below 5%... That's what I define as unlikely.

 

[jobo]

Why don't you help me and say what is to be considered a lethal technique, as chokes apparently aren't good enough for you. And I am aware of the difference between air or blood chokes.

well a lethal techneque should be pretty much guaranteed to be lethal by any one who uses it. I have,choked lot of people, non of them died so not lethal!.

cutting some ones head off lethal, stamping on their big toe not lethal

saying that if you Hung about still strangling the passed out victim for 5 mins, is like saying kicks are lethal if you keep kicking them in the head for 5 minutes after they have passed out, in that case every thing is lethal if you do it for long enough

 

[jobo]

Strangling is probably still the quickest way bare handed.

It would take ten minutes to beat someone to death.

ok, all techniques are deadly if you do them for long enough, but choking is possibly the quickest, Il run with that

 

[Saheim]

When I was a cop, we were expected to elevate the level of force based on the level of resistance being encountered. This means - decide, during the confrontation, whether to push it a little harder.

At my last school (not my current, I moved) the instructor was an X cop but taught an entirely different approach in regards to self defense. His logic was simple - do your best to avoid a violent encounter. Apologize, walk away, heck RUN away, wtvr BUT once it is inevitable and you are being FORCED into a situation that you tried to avoid, it is ALL in. You crack the throttle wide open. Thing is - you didn' want this fight, your attacker did, so if/when he ends up missing an eye, with permanent knee damage, or worse, that's on him.

I subscribe to that logic - if forced into a violent encounter, I'm going be as violent as possible. I'm not gonna stick a toe in the water and see if that works, then apply a little more.

Kids, on the other hand (imho) should be trained with simple parameters - This is a technique for when grown ups (or really big kids) try to hurt you. This is a technique when fighting other kids. Because, I agree, a bunch of 2nd graders probably shouldn't be spear handing each other in the eyes or throat. However, that same kid faced with a disparity of size/strength better be prepared to bring as much "ugly" to the table as they can so they aren't found naked and dead somewhere.

Niccolo Machiavelli once said - if you are going to hurt a man, hurt him bad enough you need not fear his vengeance.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You have seen people die from human trauma to the throat, a number of times? To be clear, I mean a person hitting another person in the throat - not strangulation or mechanical trauma.

Yes. Wasn't my statement perfectly clear? I've been in the ER for 35+ years. It's not something I see every week, but I've seen it more than once. I can recall a few cases off hand. Two were dead by the time they got to us, one arrested while we were trying to secure an airway. I can think of one that survived. Certainly my memory is imperfect and a records search could show more cases. But I've seen at least four hyoid or laryngeal fractures, with 75% of that admittedly small and localized sample resulting in death.

Sure - I was using casual terms. Yes, frequently broken in strangulation.

No, in strangulation deaths these fractures are only found in about 12% of cases. That's not frequent.
Admittedly, you'll see larger numbers from strangulation, but that's because strangulation is quite common, while properly executed strikes to the throat are really not. I see multiple assaults every shift; I can't recall the last time one of them had been struck in the throat. I see someone who was strangled (either self-inflicted or as part of an assault) every week or two.

Are you talking about asphyxial deaths again? When laryngeal injury is correctly assessed and airways re secured mortality rate drops to below 5%... That's what I define as unlikely.

Good luck with that. You're correct in that securing an airway is THE issue. However, most people with these fractures are dead before EMS can even attempt an airway. That is a trait shared by many injuries (such as aortic separation) that have enormous mortality rates. And because these injuries are both rare and subtle, they're very commonly overlooked. By the time symptoms are clear, laryngeal fracture makes successful intubation extremely unlikely. Ditto cricothyrotomy. Tracheotomy is the best option, but I do not know of any EMS program in the US that teaches that procedure.
There's a good article on Medscape HERE, from 2016. They do discuss various causes of these injuries, but given their rarity it's not surprising that there's no effort to break down statistics by etiology. The sample size for each would be too small to draw any meaningful conclusion.

 

[BrendanF]

Yes. Wasn't my statement perfectly clear? I've been in the ER for 35+ years. It's not something I see every week, but I've seen it more than once. I can recall a few cases off hand. Two were dead by the time they got to us, one arrested while we were trying to secure an airway. I can think of one that survived. Certainly my memory is imperfect and a records search could show more cases. But I've seen at least four hyoid or laryngeal fractures, with 75% of that admittedly small and localized sample resulting in death.

Not really - you seemed to swap between discussing trauma and asphyxia, hence my confusion.

No, in strangulation deaths these fractures are only found in about 12% of cases. That's not frequent.
Admittedly, you'll see larger numbers from strangulation, but that's because strangulation is quite common, while properly executed strikes to the throat are really not. I see multiple assaults every shift; I can't recall the last time one of them had been struck in the throat. I see someone who was strangled (either self-inflicted or as part of an assault) every week or two.

Ok - it was my understanding that figures are higher than 12%. Of course net figures for strangulation will be higher, that's understood.

Good luck with that. You're correct in that securing an airway is THE issue. However, most people with these fractures are dead before EMS can even attempt an airway. That is a trait shared by many injuries (such as aortic separation) that have enormous mortality rates. And because these injuries are both rare and subtle, they're very commonly overlooked. By the time symptoms are clear, laryngeal fracture makes successful intubation extremely unlikely. Ditto cricothyrotomy. Tracheotomy is the best option, but I do not know of any EMS program in the US that teaches that procedure.
There's a good article on Medscape HERE, from 2016. They do discuss various causes of these injuries, but given their rarity it's not surprising that there's no effort to break down statistics by etiology. The sample size for each would be too small to draw any meaningful conclusion.

Well, I certainly don't have the same level of ER experience as you - and am in a different country - I have heard of a successful tracheotomy first hand, but the damage was a result of blunt force.

Thank you for the article, I'll have a look.

 

[CB Jones]

I subscribe to that logic - if forced into a violent encounter, I'm going be as violent as possible. I'm not gonna stick a toe in the water and see if that works, then apply a little more

 

[JR 137]

Strangling is probably still the quickest way bare handed.

It would take ten minutes to beat someone to death.

That seems about right. How long was the scene where they beat Joe Pesci and his brother to death in Casino?

Edit: They used bats and shovels, so add about 5 minutes barehanded, depending on strength and aggression. They didn’t kill him; they beat them almost to death then buried them while they were still barely alive. So add another 2 minutes to the scene and you’re good.

 

[CB Jones]

It only took a second for that soccer player to kill the ref with one punch.

 

[drop bear]

It only took a second for that soccer player to kill the ref with one punch.

Yeah but I a assuming intentionally. Like those ninja kill moves everyone hears about but don't really exist.

 

[Langenschwert]

Well with sword based HEMA and Koryu sword arts being my focus, most of what I train is lethal. I also do Judo and modern combatives which are designed to be non lethal, but one could certainly make them lethal if needed as discussed earlier.

 

[Kenshijim1975]

Why do you need to kill. True Budo is about survival and more importantly about a peaceful existence!! We all have one crack at life so make the most of it respect it and use the skills you learn wisely. or you can top someone do a long stretch in the nick but make sure you have soap on a rope and plenty of ky jelly lube as i said you could get a lot of stretch

 

[Saheim]

Why do you need to kill. True Budo is about survival and more importantly about a peaceful existence!! We all have one crack at life so make the most of it respect it and use the skills you learn wisely. or you can top someone do a long stretch in the nick but make sure you have soap on a rope and plenty of ky jelly lube as i said you could get a lot of stretch

I hear an ol MAist give an opinion, on that, and it has stayed with me for ages.

He said (not verbatim, long ago) - if me and a guy sized each other up, in a doorway, the "peaceful" thing for me to do would be step aside. But what if I knew he was walking through that door to kill the people in that room? Facing a predator is the same for me, could I give a mugger a couple quick shots and get away? Probably, but what about his next victim? A woman, an elderly person? If fate crossed his path with mine, I have a responsibility to make sure he hurts no one else. To me, that is part of the Warrior's Code.

Or something to that effect.

 

[Kenshijim1975]

I hear an ol MAist give an opinion, on that, and it has stayed with me for ages.

He said (not verbatim, long ago) - if me and a guy sized each other up, in a doorway, the "peaceful" thing for me to do would be step aside. But what if I knew he was walking through that door to kill the people in that room? Facing a predator is the same for me, could I give a mugger a couple quick shots and get away? Probably, but what about his next victim? A woman, an elderly person? If fate crossed his path with mine, I have a responsibility to make sure he hurts no one else. To me, that is part of the Warrior's Code.

Or something to that effect.

As i posted you have to use your skills wisely