Question to all teacher, just a curiosity.

[charyuop]

In all Martial Arts of course there are ways to kill the opponent. In all the demo you see around you always see techniques carried out in full, meaning block a punch, hitting the opponent a few times, dropping him/her on the ground and the hit more times.
That all creates a huge amount of damage if done in reality. I know that a student has to learn everything in full...
But how many teachers tell students that what they learn can't actually be used in a self defense occasion? Creating that amount of damage, even if for self defence, would send you streight to jail for excessive use of strength.

So I was wondering how you face this subject with your students...

 

[IWishToLearn]

I inform them in each and every technique of the issues inherant to any and all followup attacks past the "point of no return". Each student has to learn through experience what the acceptable risks and consequences of every strike, joint lock, throw, fall, etc. Ultimately all of us could be put into a court room for simply defending ourselves. What we have to do is make sure we know at what point we stopped defending - and started attacking. That's the point where we're then liable for major damages.

 

[terryl965]

I simply tell them once the person is get help for yourself and get way from the person. There is no way anybody can carry out fifty move and not be prosecuted under the law.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I tell them use enough to get away

 

[kidswarrior]

With the older teen group (young adults), we cover this incessantly. Use force only commensurate with self defense, then stop. Even that is in a way a failure, because we allowed ourselves to be put in a position where it came down to the physical (as opposed to using awareness to keep us out of such situations, as said in another thread). Sometimes there is no helping it, but often we can avoid danger by being smart and following our instincts. With younger teens, we cover it some. With kids K-5, issues are more about keeping our composure and not giving bullies the reaction they're looking for: not that we back down, just that we don't get pulled into their anger. Confuses them greatly, and not getting the expected reaciton, they often leave.

 

[tellner]

There's a lot of stuff I wouldn't show tweens or teens unless there was a really compelling reason. Adults get the thumbnail "I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I've been told" about lawful self defense. The big part is "Know what you're doing and why you're doing it. Stop when there is no longer a threat. Do not use deadly force unless it is being used or about to be used against you or an innocent and there's no other way of avoiding it. Try to be the one who calls the cops."

There are some who say "SSS - Shoot, Shovel, Shutup." I don't associate with people like that for moral as well as legal reasons.

 

[charyuop]

There are some who say "SSS - Shoot, Shovel, Shutup." I don't associate with people like that for moral as well as legal reasons.

Yea, I have talked in the past with a guy who was studying...let's say a MA (not fair saying what style, because it is not the MA's fault). He was taught kinda that way, of course not shoot, but in case of self defence create the more damage possible and then flee as fast as you can.

 

[kidswarrior]

There are some who say "SSS - Shoot, Shovel, Shutup." I don't associate with people like that for moral as well as legal reasons.

I'm with you on this, tellner. I wonder how many of these 3-S people have really used deadly force, or even come close (maiming, etc.)? If someone has done so and still takes this macho attitude, their moral compass is pretty much free spinning. For most, tho', I would say they are advocating something they know nothing about. The guys I've known and spoken with who were forced by circumstance (in the military and after) to kill or cause gross bodily injury, either A) Would not talk about it, or B) Blanked out to the 1000 yard stare as they spoke in very soft tones. Not really a SSS mentality that I could see.

 

[MJS]

In all Martial Arts of course there are ways to kill the opponent. In all the demo you see around you always see techniques carried out in full, meaning block a punch, hitting the opponent a few times, dropping him/her on the ground and the hit more times.
That all creates a huge amount of damage if done in reality. I know that a student has to learn everything in full...
But how many teachers tell students that what they learn can't actually be used in a self defense occasion? Creating that amount of damage, even if for self defence, would send you streight to jail for excessive use of strength.

So I was wondering how you face this subject with your students...

Kidswarrior made a good point when he mentioned use of force. No matter what the age, its very important to stress this. Keep in mind, that many techniques can be altered. In other words, I'll use Kenpo for an example. A good portion of the techniques have some sort of a kick to the knee, a break or hyper-extension of a limb or a rake or poke to the eyes. Is every situation going to require me to break someones arm? Of course not. What about an eye poke? Of course not. But, that eye poke can be transitioned to a palm strike to the face. That kick to the knee can be moved up a bit or possibly changed to a knee to the leg.

Its a tough choice because there are usually two schools of thought...one saying that they escalate the force according to whats happening to them and another that says, Hey this guy attacked me, he's getting what he deserves.

Bottom line, no matter what route you decide to take, it would be good to make sure that you were 100% justified in whatever it is that you did.

Mike

 

[searcher]

The students must be made aware of every component of the techniques you teach them and what it can/will do to an individual if they use it. They should also have a very good understanding of the local laws and the use offorce pyramid. And as an instructor you need to decide when a student is ready for the techniques that you about to teach them.

 

[The Kidd]

I teach situations, and break it down to 3 H's, (Harm, Hurt, or Humble). Take a 14 year old (just an example I am thinking off the top of my head) if he is in school and is approached and cannot get away he may want to block and put the attacker into a hold (Humble) rather than strike back a face possible discipline action. If he is approached say at the mall by a single attacker with a weapon then he may want to block and strike that individual (Hurt) and then leave the scene. If that same 14 year old is approached in the Mall bathroom by several attackers then you may need to use more force where the strikes/kicks are more harmful (Harm) due to the deadly nature of the attack. Of course all this depends on the age and belt of the student as to how and what you teach them.

 

[MJS]

I teach situations, and break it down to 3 H's, (Harm, Hurt, or Humble). Take a 14 year old (just an example I am thinking off the top of my head) if he is in school and is approached and cannot get away he may want to block and put the attacker into a hold (Humble) rather than strike back a face possible discipline action. If he is approached say at the mall by a single attacker with a weapon then he may want to block and strike that individual (Hurt) and then leave the scene. If that same 14 year old is approached in the Mall bathroom by several attackers then you may need to use more force where the strikes/kicks are more harmful (Harm) due to the deadly nature of the attack. Of course all this depends on the age and belt of the student as to how and what you teach them.

Hey, thats cool!! I like that breakdown!!:ultracool

Mike

 

[jdinca]

I don't tell them they can't use it all. If it's a life and death situation, they darned well better. What I do tell them is that it's necessary to use the appropriate amount of force and not to go overboard and why. When being taught techniques, I also show them at what point the response could be finished, based on the response of the attacker and the situation.

 

[kidswarrior]

When being taught techniques, I also show them at what point the response could be finished, based on the response of the attacker and the situation.

Excellent teaching method! Trying to think why I haven't done this, and all I can come up with is I've been too lazy! :uhyeah: No, really, I think I just needed you to point it out to me. :wink2:

 

[charyuop]

I don't tell them they can't use it all. If it's a life and death situation, they darned well better. What I do tell them is that it's necessary to use the appropriate amount of force and not to go overboard and why. When being taught techniques, I also show them at what point the response could be finished, based on the response of the attacker and the situation.

I think this is a great approach. This way a student can also be aware of possible weak points of the technique expecting a certain reaction.

 

[Tez3]

Teach your students how to put an unconcious person into the recovery position, always useful. Makes them look like they care when the police arrive (the student of course is the one who called them)

 

[kidswarrior]

Teach your students how to put an unconcious person into the recovery position, always useful. Makes them look like they care when the police arrive (the student of course is the one who called them)

 

[Empty Hands]

If someone has done so and still takes this macho attitude, their moral compass is pretty much free spinning.

Macho? Perhaps they are realistic about their chances of seeing true "justice" in our immensely flawed system. Take the following post:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23028
"But even with that video, it still took about 10 months of legal red tape to get all of that resolved. Self-defense is probably the hardest thing to prove."

Someone pulls a gun on this guy, he is unarmed but breaks their arm, and then calls the cops. Everything is on tape. Yet he is under a cloud for 10 months? What about the situation where there is no tape? What if you are a young black man and your attacker is a woman (unlikely, but work with me) or an older white man? ISTM that the presumption of "victim" will always be with the person lying on the ground with the broken arm, no matter the circumstances.

Now, am I saying that everyone should SSS? By no means. If nothing else, if there are other witnesses or evidence and you get caught, you are going to jail no matter what you can prove self-defense wise. But given the facts-on-the-ground with our police force and our flawed judicial system with it's flawed assumptions and flawed treatment of certain groups (think minorities), I can certainly understand the impulse, and I wouldn't condemn it out of hand.

We are always taught as children that the police are your friends and the truth will set you free. In the good ol' US of A, that just isn't the case.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In all Martial Arts of course there are ways to kill the opponent. In all the demo you see around you always see techniques carried out in full, meaning block a punch, hitting the opponent a few times, dropping him/her on the ground and the hit more times.
That all creates a huge amount of damage if done in reality. I know that a student has to learn everything in full...
But how many teachers tell students that what they learn can't actually be used in a self defense occasion? Creating that amount of damage, even if for self defence, would send you streight to jail for excessive use of strength.

So I was wondering how you face this subject with your students...

Since your going to jail anyway...

 

[Jdokan]

My process is to teach what is needed to save a life...yours....the hard part comes when a student needs to use technique that can be either maim or kill it depends on the amount of controlled force...That typically comes with time in the art....I hope that the individual that comes into a situation can quickly assess the need to dish out what is correct then has the proficiency to do just that.....

Do you guys teach different techniques for the different levels of attack?
check/maim/kill....I think most of the techniques are all check/maim/kill...It just depends on how much you turn it on....