Martial sacrilege (part 2)

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,951
Reaction score
7,639
Location
Hendersonville, NC
My first instructor used to break out the 8mm films once in a while to remind himself of the details of this form or that.

Good enough for me.
For reminders and similar technique, it's definitely a useful tool.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,214
Location
In the dojo
yes but HOW far is the question and do you really need to go much further to enjoy a game of golf with your father in law or who ever.

a bit of instruction of a,vid, a few dozen ball a few hours of practise and someone of reasonable hand eye co ordination should be,able to hit the ball a good way in the right direction most of the time, just on trial and error
Yes and no.

When a self taught schmuck who thinks he’s better than he really is runs his mouth at the golf course on Saturday morning, the worst case scenario is a bruised pride and losing a few dollars if he’s stupid enough to bet.

When a self taught schmuck who thinks he’s better than he really is runs his mouth at the pub on Friday night, a realistic scenario could be a bruised brain and losing a few teeth.

Fundamental difference. And a fundamental difference between a sport/exercise hobbyist MAist teaching himself and someone who actually thinks he’ll be capable of defending himself by watching some YouTube videos, dvds, books, etc. and trying to replicate it.

Obviously that doesn’t mean anyone who actually trains under a teacher won’t ever get stomped, but the odds are better when you have an actual teacher vs self taught.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,214
Location
In the dojo
You said you learned a technique perfectly from video, but that an art cannot be learned that way. What is the part that cannot be learned that way?
An art is the whole package and/or how to apply the technique(s) vs a technique is one single thing without application???

I don’t know. I’m trying here. No idea why I’m trying to get into his head... It’s kinda scary in here.... I’d better leave now :)
 

Zombocalypse

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
170
Reaction score
17
You said you learned a technique perfectly from video, but that an art cannot be learned that way. What is the part that cannot be learned that way?

Ah, I see.

You can learn certain techniques from videos. Yes. I can do a good chokozuki and a good roundhouse kick because of youtube alone.

The aspect of martial arts that cannot be learned in videos alone is the actual act of fighting somebody. This can only be learned through sparring and fighting. Sparring and fighting are indispensable and you will NEED more than a video to do them. Sparring partners and tough opponents are key.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,214
Location
In the dojo
Ah, I see.

You can learn certain techniques from videos. Yes. I can do a good chokozuki and a good roundhouse kick because of youtube alone.

The aspect of martial arts that cannot be learned in videos alone is the actual act of fighting somebody. This can only be learned through sparring and fighting. Sparring and fighting are indispensable and you will NEED more than a video to do them. Sparring partners and tough opponents are key.
Goes along with working a bag. I used to hit the bag at my local YMCA. I’d get someone at least every other day telling me I should compete in kickboxing or something along those lines. One guy said “if you ever see me in the alley late at night, remember... I’m your friend.” That one was pretty funny.

I’d always say “this bag makes me look great; it doesn’t move out of the way and hit me back.” They’d usually smile and nod and move on.
 

Zombocalypse

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
170
Reaction score
17
Goes along with working a bag. I used to hit the bag at my local YMCA. I’d get someone at least every other day telling me I should compete in kickboxing or something along those lines. One guy said “if you ever see me in the alley late at night, remember... I’m your friend.” That one was pretty funny.

I’d always say “this bag makes me look great; it doesn’t move out of the way and hit me back.” They’d usually smile and nod and move on.

From what I've read, hitting heavy bags are a great way to develop striking power.

And I don't know if this applies to sand-filled bags only, but roundhouse-kicking a heavy bag hurts like hell. I used to visit an MMA gym many many years ago and would toy with a heavy-bag for fun. Now, I'm not a kickboxer. My strength and power were decent (315-pound front squat and 205-pound clean+jerk) but I was a novice with striking. And yet, even though my roundhouse kicks were relatively weak, I felt immense pain on my shins. It was a delicious, throbbing pain. I loved it. It was like having a deep pimple that hurts when you press on it. I absolutely loved it...

With that said, I have a question... What exactly is inside of a heavy bag? What variations are there? Is it sand and water? Aside from sand and water, what else is there? Or are those it?

Thanks.

EDIT: My roundhouse kicks were done Muay Thai style, with shins connecting to the object instead of the instep.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,214
Location
In the dojo
From what I've read, hitting heavy bags are a great way to develop striking power.

And I don't know if this applies to sand-filled bags only, but roundhouse-kicking a heavy bag hurts like hell. I used to visit an MMA gym many many years ago and would toy with a heavy-bag for fun. Now, I'm not a kickboxer. My strength and power were decent (315-pound front squat and 205-pound clean+jerk) but I was a novice with striking. And yet, even though my roundhouse kicks were relatively weak, I felt immense pain on my shins. It was a delicious, throbbing pain. I loved it. It was like having a deep pimple that hurts when you press on it. I absolutely loved it...

With that said, I have a question... What exactly is inside of a heavy bag? What variations are there? Is it sand and water? Aside from sand and water, what else is there? Or are those it?

Thanks.

EDIT: My roundhouse kicks were done Muay Thai style, with shins connecting to the object instead of the instep.
A lot of the better bags use fabric strips. They pack them pretty tight into the bag, giving them a really good firmness without being too hard. Fabric has the advantage that it doesn’t turn hard like how sand lumps up and basically turns to stone.

A lot of different stuff is used, and some manufacturers use a few different things in a single bag. Stuff like poly fill, different types of foam, and so on.
 

Zombocalypse

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
170
Reaction score
17
A lot of the better bags use fabric strips. They pack them pretty tight into the bag, giving them a really good firmness without being too hard. Fabric has the advantage that it doesn’t turn hard like how sand lumps up and basically turns to stone.

A lot of different stuff is used, and some manufacturers use a few different things in a single bag. Stuff like poly fill, different types of foam, and so on.

Thanks.
 

Paul_D

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
437
Location
England
A karate punch is not a martial art. Karate is a martial art. Tae Kwon Do is a martial art. An art does not revolve around an element of said art.
But that is his you learn a MA, one part at a time. Unless you are Neo and this is The Matrix, in which case you can just download the art into your head.
 

Paul_D

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
437
Location
England
Ah, I see.

You can learn certain techniques from videos. Yes. I can do a good chokozuki and a good roundhouse kick because of youtube alone.

The aspect of martial arts that cannot be learned in videos alone is the actual act of fighting somebody. This can only be learned through sparring and fighting. Sparring and fighting are indispensable and you will NEED more than a video to do them. Sparring partners and tough opponents are key.
Does that mean when you said you can’t learn MA from a video, what you actually meant was you can’t learn sparring?
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,951
Reaction score
7,639
Location
Hendersonville, NC
From what I've read, hitting heavy bags are a great way to develop striking power.

And I don't know if this applies to sand-filled bags only, but roundhouse-kicking a heavy bag hurts like hell. I used to visit an MMA gym many many years ago and would toy with a heavy-bag for fun. Now, I'm not a kickboxer. My strength and power were decent (315-pound front squat and 205-pound clean+jerk) but I was a novice with striking. And yet, even though my roundhouse kicks were relatively weak, I felt immense pain on my shins. It was a delicious, throbbing pain. I loved it. It was like having a deep pimple that hurts when you press on it. I absolutely loved it...

With that said, I have a question... What exactly is inside of a heavy bag? What variations are there? Is it sand and water? Aside from sand and water, what else is there? Or are those it?

Thanks.

EDIT: My roundhouse kicks were done Muay Thai style, with shins connecting to the object instead of the instep.
If you're feeling "immense pain" you're doing something wrong.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,951
Reaction score
7,639
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Does that mean when you said you can’t learn MA from a video, what you actually meant was you can’t learn sparring?
Or fighting and defending. I think his point was you can learn the techniques but not application. It's a good point, though I don't think it goes far enough.
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,377
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Huber Heights, OH
A karate punch is not a martial art. Karate is a martial art. Tae Kwon Do is a martial art. An art does not revolve around an element of said art.
So Kendo doesn't revolve around the shinai? Kyudo doesn't revolve around the bow? Fencing doesn't revolve around the foil, sabre, epee, and piste?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just asking you to think a bit more deeply about your statements.
 

lklawson

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
4,377
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Huber Heights, OH
A lot of the better bags use fabric strips. They pack them pretty tight into the bag, giving them a really good firmness without being too hard. Fabric has the advantage that it doesn’t turn hard like how sand lumps up and basically turns to stone.

A lot of different stuff is used, and some manufacturers use a few different things in a single bag. Stuff like poly fill, different types of foam, and so on.
One 19th Century boxing "heavy" bag used Oats for stuffing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Paul_D

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
437
Location
England
Or fighting and defending. I think his point was you can learn the techniques but not application. It's a good point, though I don't think it goes far enough.
I’m not sure what he means which is why I’m asking him. Not all MA involve fighting, so I’d like to know if he thinks you can learn them from videos or not.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,678
Reaction score
1,360
I'm also going to say that the quality of the video is of great importance as well. There are 3 types of videos I've seen for teaching martial arts online:

1. The succinct video that only shows the technique. For example, a high block video with a music track behind it, which shows the chamber and block positions of the high block, with a couple notes saying "start with your blocking arm cradled below the other arm" and then "ensure the block is at a 45-degree angle."
2. The unscripted, verbose video that shows the technique and many different applications for it. This is the type of video where someone says "this is how you high block, now a high block can lead to other things, like here I can grab his wrist, but you might be thinking he can do this or that, but he doesn't have time to do this, and if he does that I'll do this other thing, but only if X and Y and Z..." It features a lot of details, sometimes strung together haphazardly, and no editing.
3. The scripted, verbose video. These videos feature a lot of applications of a technique, but do so in a well-edited manner that's easy to follow. For example, they may show a high block, and then show different clips of high blocks being used to initiate grabs, chain into counter-attacks, or how to transition into another block, and then will show clips with different details of the high block.

Scenario 1 is great for showing the skills, but useless for polishing skills or teaching applications. I believe that without understanding the application of a technique it can be hard to progress with it, so Scenario 1 is great for showing what your requirements are on a test or what skills you should practice, but not for instruction.

Scenario 2 is an example of a bad way to correct the problems with Scenario 1. These videos are hard to follow, sometimes completely incoherent, in that the instructor is responding to questions in his own mind, or is doing a FAQ without properly pacing the questions and answers. Verbose videos done in 1 cut tend to have a feeling of unpreparedness about them, and are not professional and hard to use.

Scenario 3 is a good way of doing a video. You not only cover the material, but do so in a way that is easy to present to the audience. Ginger Ninja Trickster on Youtube is an example of how to do good tutorials. They are generally well edited so you can see the variations of the technique and different applications, and can easily find the spot you're looking for on future viewings.

Even so, I wouldn't replace Scenario 3 with a good local instructor.
 

Latest Discussions

Top