Martial Arts Is Not Religion, An Instructor Is Not A God

[Steve]

Who said unexplained?

You did, just now. You also alluded to it in your previous post when you said:

I am not an overtly religious Christina but do believe in a creator. Can I see him? Of course not. Does that hugely hang me up? Naa. I am a pretty educated guy and all I know is I have seen and been a part of enough that is straight up unexplainable to write it all off as chance.

Specifically, the part where you said that, in spite of your education, you've seen a lot of things that are "straight up unexplainable." It's specious to think that just because you can't explain something or that it can't be explained now that it is unexplainable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Who said unexplained?

I think he was debating whether what’s currently unexplained can be called unexplainable. That assumes we have all the possible knowledge in that area, if the word is taken literally (though I’m not sure that was your intention).

 

[Steve]

I think he was debating whether what’s currently unexplained can be called unexplainable. That assumes we have all the possible knowledge in that area, if the word is taken literally (though I’m not sure that was your intention).

If I see something and can't explain it, I may describe it as unexplainable. It could possibly, actually be unexplainable (the actual word is ineffable). But it is far more likely that it is explainable... just not by me.

It's an interesting topic, because central to the concept of orthodox christianity is the idea that God is ineffable. But that would then call into question how one could describe God. If we can describe a being that is indescribable... than by definition, it is not indescribable. What's really cool is that this same logic was used in reverse in a very old (like 11th century) ontological argument for God that is basically:

God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
If you can conceive of a being greater than God, it isn't God.
If God doesn't exist, you can conceive of a being greater than that being.
A being that exists is greater than that same being which doesn't exist.
Therefore, because God is that than which no greater can be conceived, God must exist.

It's been a number of decades since I've thought about this one, but that's basically how I remember it. Now, there are a lot of obvious issues with this argument. But it's stuck around in various forms for a long time, so, it's got some legs. But if God is ineffable, and greater than that which can be conceived, how does one worship that God? How can one believe the interpretations of that God's will in churches? Etc, etc.

To the main point of this discussion is that this argument of ineffability would be unique to our experience in the universe, in that we see evidence every day that things which are as yet unexplained are not ineffable, but rather are just not known to us yet.

 

[elder999]

Unfortunately, I have. This was some time ago at a few tournaments. Slick, Korean woman from Vermont who I only saw in all white outfits.

She would stand on a table with fifty to seventy of her brainwashed minions sitting on the floor around her while she preached to them. They would oss and bow like bobble heads, place their foreheads to the floor and oss some more.

Truly bizarre. They only came to a couple tournaments and never placed anywhere but last, I guess that’s why they stopped coming. I’ll see if I can dig up who she is and let you know.

Tae Yun Kim also known as Kyong Ae Fontaine!
Google her...she's.... interesting.
Tae Yun Kim - Google Search

 

[drop bear]

It's an interesting topic, because central to the concept of orthodox christianity is the idea that God is ineffable. But that would then call into question how one could describe God. If we can describe a being that is indescribable... than by definition, it is not indescribable. What's really cool is that this same logic was used in reverse in a very old (like 11th century) ontological argument for God that is basically:

Because a pretty big call to suggest you could interpret his will from that stance as well.


By the way.

"God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
If you can conceive of a being greater than God, it isn't God.
If God doesn't exist, you can conceive of a being greater than that being.
A being that exists is greater than that same being which doesn't exist.
Therefore, because God is that than which no greater can be conceived, God must exist."


Made a bit more simply is.

Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

Which is the same sort of paradox you were going for.

 

[Steve]

Because a pretty big call to suggest you could interpret his will from that stance as well.


By the way.

"God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
If you can conceive of a being greater than God, it isn't God.
If God doesn't exist, you can conceive of a being greater than that being.
A being that exists is greater than that same being which doesn't exist.
Therefore, because God is that than which no greater can be conceived, God must exist."


Made a bit more simply is.

Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

Which is the same sort of paradox you were going for.

Exactly. The paradox you bring up is a good example of the problems of believing in a being that is greater than can be imagined, both all knowing and all powerful. I shared the argument above as I did because it has been around for such a long time, and is one of the biggies when it comes to arguments for the existence of God (or a creator of some kind). Thomas Aquinas' five ways are another.

Another common argument against an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent being is the problem of evil. I mean, why would an all powerful being who is not evil create evil or introduce suffering into his creation?

 

[dvcochran]

If I see something and can't explain it, I may describe it as unexplainable. It could possibly, actually be unexplainable (the actual word is ineffable). But it is far more likely that it is explainable... just not by me.

It's an interesting topic, because central to the concept of orthodox christianity is the idea that God is ineffable. But that would then call into question how one could describe God. If we can describe a being that is indescribable... than by definition, it is not indescribable. What's really cool is that this same logic was used in reverse in a very old (like 11th century) ontological argument for God that is basically:

God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
If you can conceive of a being greater than God, it isn't God.
If God doesn't exist, you can conceive of a being greater than that being.
A being that exists is greater than that same being which doesn't exist.
Therefore, because God is that than which no greater can be conceived, God must exist.

It's been a number of decades since I've thought about this one, but that's basically how I remember it. Now, there are a lot of obvious issues with this argument. But it's stuck around in various forms for a long time, so, it's got some legs. But if God is ineffable, and greater than that which can be conceived, how does one worship that God? How can one believe the interpretations of that God's will in churches? Etc, etc.

To the main point of this discussion is that this argument of ineffability would be unique to our experience in the universe, in that we see evidence every day that things which are as yet unexplained are not ineffable, but rather are just not known to us yet.

I think that is the human condition. We try, we fail. We learn, we try again. We fail again. But we keep trying as best we can. The same can be said for worship. We always fall short but we do the best we can.

 

[dvcochran]

Tae Yun Kim also known as Kyong Ae Fontaine!
Google her...she's.... interesting.
Tae Yun Kim - Google Search

I knew she was very big in South Korea but wow. Her net worth jumped about 4 million dollars from 2018 o 2019. She is definitely doing some things right.

 

[hoshin1600]

I honestly seem to remember a forum rule about no religion topics but new owners new rules i guess and by new i mean ages ago.
FYI , In 2017 Greece recognized the worship of the traditional gods Zeus, Hades etc as a legit religion. Just throwing that out there in case anyone wanted to jump off the YHWH train.

 

[hoshin1600]

Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

Thought I would give credit where due. This is a George Carlin skit. I believe it was on the Occupation Foole album.

 

[Buka]

Tae Yun Kim also known as Kyong Ae Fontaine!
Google her...she's.... interesting.
Tae Yun Kim - Google Search

Yes, she is interesting.

It was bizarre watching her with her students, Wizard of Oz-ish.

 

[Steve]

I honestly seem to remember a forum rule about no religion topics but new owners new rules i guess and by new i mean ages ago.
FYI , In 2017 Greece recognized the worship of the traditional gods Zeus, Hades etc as a legit religion. Just throwing that out there in case anyone wanted to jump off the YHWH train.

Only change I can recall to the rules from the very beginning is the ban on the political stuff. The TOS still sounds like bob Hubbard to me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I honestly seem to remember a forum rule about no religion topics but new owners new rules i guess and by new i mean ages ago.
FYI , In 2017 Greece recognized the worship of the traditional gods Zeus, Hades etc as a legit religion. Just throwing that out there in case anyone wanted to jump off the YHWH train.

I believe Iceland has recognized the worship of the old nordic gods too. Heard that they've got a temple(?) in reykjavik.

 

[drop bear]

I believe Iceland has recognized the worship of the old nordic gods too. Heard that they've got a temple(?) in reykjavik.

Jedi is popular in Australia as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Jedi is popular in Australia as well.

And I’m ordained in the Church of the Latter Day Dude.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I really love how if enough people put a certain group on the census they generally include it for the next one. Thats probbly a Urban Myth, or its probbly not a myth at all, half of those relgion groups have to come from somewhere.

 

[Buka]

I grew up in Boston, home of the legendary Catholic Archdiocese of Boston sex abuse scandal.

Here's my old Parish priest, the first to be excommunicated, and his frequent travelling buddy....

The oh so sweet Whitey Bulger.

I've had enough organized religion to last me a lifetime, thank you.

 

[Flying Crane]

I grew up in Boston, home of the legendary Catholic Archdiocese of Boston sex abuse scandal.

Here's my old Parish priest, the first to be excommunicated, and his frequent travelling buddy....

View attachment 23076

The oh so sweet Whitey Bulger.

I've had enough organized religion to last me a lifetime, thank you.

I feel the same way. And to be honest, I can’t claim to have been subjected to any abuse or trauma, nor been witness to same. Just tired of people trying to mandate what I believe, taken on faith and without any real evidence.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe Iceland has recognized the worship of the old nordic gods too. Heard that they've got a temple(?) in reykjavik.

All MA guys want to hold a sword when they die (may be not MMA guys). Is that a religion? Who cares.

 

[Buka]

I feel the same way. And to be honest, I can’t claim to have been subjected to any abuse or trauma, nor been witness to same. Just tired of people trying to mandate what I believe, taken on faith and without any real evidence.

I hear ya, brother. I ran a well attended, busy dojo in the city, lots of hard core city kids and young men. One of the first things they learned were the rules, of which there were many.

One of the first rules - "Your First Amendment Rights end when you walk in that door. There will be no talking of religion or politics in this dojo, except by me when I say there is no talking of religion or politics in this dojo. Save it for upstairs over coffee, or next door over a beer, and please be ladies or gentleman if/when you do discuss it. But not here, not ever. Not one word. Any questions?"

There weren't many questions.