Martial arts delusion and how it hurts women

[hoshin1600]

Brian , i respect you and like what you do but in this instance i am going to call you out on this.... you begin your statement here with a comment on lip service to the needs of women...

The biggest issue within this community that gears self-defense towards women is that they gloss over all of the non-physical material that is important in personal protection. To many instructors give lip service to awareness, avoidance, de-escalation techniques, pre-violence indicators, etc.

then go on to post the very thing the entire thread is pointing out is wrong with MA.

Now, every class should have conversations about personal protection. It could show threat indicators as shown in the video below:

this again is men ,, stranger on stranger violent encounter.
it may not have been your intention but it shows how easily we fall into the stranger on stranger encounter which may not be all that prevalent for women.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No actually not at all. Threat indicators occur in domestic violence against women as well.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Especially if they have already had domestic violence committed against them by a partner and are still with the partner. That is a threat indicator right there. Meaning, their is a possibility that it can happen again.

Your welcome to call me out but I actually have experience in this field. Personal and some professional.

 

[hoshin1600]

What I take from the premise of the blog is that martial arts training is delusional. That is probably an over simplification, but still accurate in a nutshell.

And I say, no it is not, but it really depends on the person and what they are able to do with their training.

i would say yes you missed the point

"Assault by friends, boyfriends, husbands, co-workers, teachers, bosses, and relatives, the monumental majority of assaults inflicted on women, start with emotional manipulation. Controlling behavior. Envelope-pushing behavior. Boundary erosion. Manipulation. Creation of ambiguity."

your assumption of "the persons ability with their training" how is that going to protect a women from the manipulation and controlling behavior of her boyfriend?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Martial Arts delusion and how it hurts women.

i pulled this from another thread. i feel it deserves its own thread.

I'd like to clarify a term here. I know some consider "self-defense" to be the same as "self-protection". I do not. In my use, self-defense is what you do to defend yourself against an imminent attack (including situational awareness, recognizing imminent danger cues, etc.). Self-protection is a larger umbrella that includes self-defense, and also includes many other areas. Most self-defense instructors include some self-protection content (target hardening, understanding situations, etc.).

I think this is where the conflict in these discussions comes from. I don't think any of the instructors I know would argue that we teach (or are qualified to teach) much about how to avoid someone slipping drugs into your drink at a bar. Most of us do discuss the danger of such things, but only so far as we competently can (which ain't far). We teach physical skills that can be useful in dealing with physical assault (be it sexual or not). Some of us commit some special time to teaching in more depth in some areas around other self-protection skills, and some of us don't. Any omissions are sometimes due to ignorance (they don't understand the problem), sometimes due to a recognized lack of competence in that area (they don't have the background and training to teach rape avoidance, for instance), and rarely because they don't care.

I teach self-defense in my classes. I stray fairly often into other areas of self-protection, but mostly only where those areas are directly related to self-defense. When I teach a self-defense seminar, I do usually address some of the other self-protection areas, but only so far as I cam competent to do so, and only when there's nobody in the room more competent than me to teach that.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Now if we look at some Domestic Abuse only there are some sign's that you are in an abusive relationship:

Taken from: Domestic Violence and Abuse: Signs of Abuse and Abusive Relationships

Recognizing abuse is the first step to getting help
Domestic abuse often escalates from threats and verbal abuse to violence. And while physical injury may be the most obvious danger, the emotional and psychological consequences of domestic abuse are also severe. Emotionally abusive relationships can destroy your self-worth, lead to anxiety and depression, and make you feel helpless and alone. No one should have to endure this kind of pain—and your first step to breaking free is recognizing that your situation is abusive. Once you acknowledge the reality of the abusive situation, then you can get the help you need.

Signs of an abusive relationship
There are many signs of an abusive relationship. The most telling sign is fear of your partner. If you feel like you have to walk on eggshells around your partner—constantly watching what you say and do in order to avoid a blow-up—chances are your relationship is unhealthy and abusive. Other signs that you may be in an abusive relationship include a partner who belittles you or tries to control you, and feelings of self-loathing, helplessness, and desperation.

To determine whether your relationship is abusive, answer the questions below. The more “yes” answers, the more likely it is that you’re in an abusive relationship.

Signs that you’re in an abusive relationship
Your Inner Thoughts and Feelings
Do you:

• feel afraid of your partner much of the time?
• avoid certain topics out of fear of angering your partner?
• believe that you deserve to be hurt or mistreated?
• wonder if you’re the one who is crazy?
• feel emotionally numb or helpless?

Your Partner’s Belittling Behavior
Does your partner:

• humiliate or yell at you?
• criticize you and put you down?
• treat you so badly that you’re embarrassed for your friends or family to see?
• ignore or put down your opinions or accomplishments?
• blame you for their own abusive behavior?
• see you as property or a sex object, rather than as a person?

Your Partner’s Violent Behavior or Threats
Does your partner:

• have a bad and unpredictable temper?
• hurt you, or threaten to hurt or kill you?
• threaten to take your children away or harm them?
• threaten to commit suicide if you leave?
• force you to have sex?
• destroy your belongings?

Your Partner’s Controlling Behavior

Does your partner:

• act excessively jealous and possessive?
• control where you go or what you do?
• keep you from seeing your friends or family?
• limit your access to money, the phone, or the car?
• constantly check up on you?

I would advise any martial instructor teaching women and or domestic abuse victims to do research that is readily available on domestic violence.

 

[hoshin1600]

No actually not at all. Threat indicators occur in domestic violence against women as well.

yes but the clip shown was more for law enforcement or men in general. any indicators would not be the same. the behavior pattern shown in the clip is not consistent with violence on women.
i am not disagreeing with your statements, i am pointing out the validity of the thread. martial arts predominantly teach to men and stranger on stranger violence and not to the actual threats women will face and sometimes not the threats men will face.

 

[Flying Crane]

i would say yes you missed the point

"Assault by friends, boyfriends, husbands, co-workers, teachers, bosses, and relatives, the monumental majority of assaults inflicted on women, start with emotional manipulation. Controlling behavior. Envelope-pushing behavior. Boundary erosion. Manipulation. Creation of ambiguity."

your assumption of "the persons ability with their training" how is that going to protect a women from the manipulation and controlling behavior of her boyfriend?

Sure, there are other elements in the big picture of personal protection and self defense. But that doesn't mean training in a martial art is a delusional activity.

 

[hoshin1600]

Sure, there are other elements in the big picture of personal protection and self defense. But that doesn't mean training in a martial art is a delusional activity.

"Different skills are needed.

Kayla Harrison is an example of exactly that. She was already a gifted Judoka when she was assaulted. If anyone could defend herself with martial arts, probably even as a small child, it would have been Kayla Harrison. If martial arts skills are supposed to apply to acquaintance rape, and she couldn’t apply them, then people with no athletic skill walking in to a random school a couple of days a week surely can’t. But that wasn’t the problem. Kayla’s skills were not the problem. Many women martial artists are raped every year in spite of their belts, training, and ability to put a foot directly through a man’s abdomen. Martial arts skills are the wrong tool for that situation. Totally and completely wrong."

no one can say Kayla is not one of the best MA practitioners. so it can not be said there was lack in quality of martial skills.
the problem is spending 90 % of your time on a skill that will only give you a 10% return on the investment. this is the delusion. that martial skill alone will win the day. when in fact in most cases it never even comes into play.

 

[Flying Crane]

"Different skills are needed.

Kayla Harrison is an example of exactly that. She was already a gifted Judoka when she was assaulted. If anyone could defend herself with martial arts, probably even as a small child, it would have been Kayla Harrison. If martial arts skills are supposed to apply to acquaintance rape, and she couldn’t apply them, then people with no athletic skill walking in to a random school a couple of days a week surely can’t. But that wasn’t the problem. Kayla’s skills were not the problem. Many women martial artists are raped every year in spite of their belts, training, and ability to put a foot directly through a man’s abdomen. Martial arts skills are the wrong tool for that situation. Totally and completely wrong."

no one can say Kayla is not one of the best MA practitioners. so it can not be said there was lack in quality of martial skills.
the problem is spending 90 % of your time on a skill that will only give you a 10% return on the investment. this is the delusion. that martial skill alone will win the day. when in fact in most cases it never even comes into play.

I don't know who Kayla is, so I cannot make any judgement on her skills.

As I have said, there are several elements in the full picture of self defense and personal protection.

However, martial arts training is not a delusional activity. Sure, recognize its proper place in that picture.

If you buy into the messag of this blog, and agree that martial training is a delusional activity, you are welcome to stop training. That's up to you. Personally, I don't buy it.

 

[hoshin1600]

I don't know who Kayla is, so I cannot make any judgement on her skills.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/03/s...on-overcame-horror-to-win-judo-gold.html?_r=0

now this would not have been my first choice as an example but it was the example given in the original blog post.

 

[Steve]

The premise of this discussion is something I find odd. Training in martial arts in and of itself is not a bad thing or a delusional thing. Some schools are higher quality than others, and in some cases the differences can be exponential, so there is an element of caveat emptor.

But it still comes down to the person, and what they are able to do with their training. Some will be more capable than others. And there will be some circumstances in which there is simply no escape, no matter the person or their training. There are no guarantees with their training.

To blame this on martial arts as a whole is just...a weird position to take.

I think where things go awry is when self defense instructors believe they are equipped to teach things they are not. Or even worse, as someone already pointed out, they sell a product they know doesn't meet the need.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think where things go awry is when self defense instructors believe they are equipped to teach things they are not. Or even worse, as someone already pointed out, they sell a product they know doesn't meet the need.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Not just in martial arts or personal protection but in all walks of life.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

yes but the clip shown was more for law enforcement or men in general. any indicators would not be the same. the behavior pattern shown in the clip is not consistent with violence on women.
i am not disagreeing with your statements, i am pointing out the validity of the thread. martial arts predominantly teach to men and stranger on stranger violence and not to the actual threats women will face and sometimes not the threats men will face.

Yes, the clip was done by a law enforcement officer who happens to be a man. However, the unconscious cues that are shown in the video as "threat indicators" can apply in all walks of life. Just before an act of violence a domestic abuser may do a thousand yard stare. He may check to make sure there is nothing in the area his abuse victim can grab. He may start to clench his fists, rock as adrenaline starts, etc. So the clip has relevance. He may have a personal conscious threat indicator pattern that the abused person can pick up on the "threat indicators" he personally gives off. Then he/she can develop a strategy to get away, etc. That is if they are unwilling to leave the domestic abuser. Domestic abuse happens to both men and women as well and that is some thing always to remember.

Some martial arts are arts, sports, etc. A well rounded personal protection system will address needs of both men and women. The problem though, is that there are not a lot of well rounded personal protection systems out there and there are even fewer well trained people who can deliver skill sets to different audiences!

 

[Tez3]

I'm hugely frustrated by much of this. Domestic abuse as we are discussing on the thread about it, is not what most people perceive it to be and no woman who is undergoing domestic abuse is likely to be attending a martial arts class. The reasons are many not least the manipulation of the abusive partner and the fact she would most likely say she isn't abused, that it's her fault anyway for winding her partner up and it will be alright. This is why giving a list of signs of an abusive partner to non abused people is useless, as is the signs a man is going to hit you, if you are abused you know when the partner's going to hit before they've walked in the door but it's 'not their fault, you did something wrong'. You cannot teach any effective martial art to someone in that situation and expect them to be able to defend themselves. Only as a last desperate act most likely when there's a threat to children will an abused woman try to defend herself and then she probably won't prosecute if given a choice.
You can list warning signs etc but people just think 'oh it wouldn't happen to me' and simply do not see what is creeping up on them, it's insidious with the abused person taking on the blame of the situation. Often this is reinforced by what friends and family are left or work colleagues, 'oh he's so nice, I'm sure he didn't mean it' etc etc.

I think the point of the blog is lost.....it's not that martial arts are a delusional activity per se but it is delusional to think that martial arts training can take the place of psychological help and support along with strong laws and an understanding justice system which an abused woman needs to get out of an abusive relationship.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would agree Tez3 in that counseling for any woman in a domestic abuse situation is essential. From a trained counselor and of course support from friends and family. However, having actually taught women who were in an abusive relationship they do some times seek out training or are brought by a friend. Of course, counseling and getting out of it are what is important! Which is what the ones I have taught did almost immediately. Thanks to their counselor and friends!

 

[Tez3]

I would agree Tez3 in that counseling for any woman in a domestic abuse situation is essential. From a trained counselor and of course support from friends and family. However, having actually taught women who were in an abusive relationship they do some times seek out training or are brought by a friend. Of course, counseling and getting out of it are what is important! Which is what the ones I have taught did almost immediately. Thanks to their counselor and friends!

However, an abuse victim has to recognise they are being abused, many don't. Most of those looking for martial arts have come out of their relationship with their abuser.

Counselling is fine but can be very airy fairy, many counsellors talk from an academic experience not an abused one, those who have been abused and can counsel are better. Before all that I would like to see more safe places for abused women, there's no good persuading them to leave when they have nowhere to go and no way to support themselves.
What's the point of counselling when the victim can't leave the abuser?

 

[Tez3]

This is a better way to help victims of abuse, helping the professionals to help them.
What we do - Womens Aid

16 days - Womens Aid

 

[Steve]

Yes, this is absolutely true. Not just in martial arts or personal protection but in all walks of life.

I don't get how your statement relates to mine. How do self defense instructors teaching things they either knowingly or unknowingly incompetent to teach true in all walks of life? Are you saying that no one should teach or sell a product that doesn't work? If so, okay. I agree.

 

[hoshin1600]

i started this thread because i felt there is a lot of delusion in martial arts and self defense in many different ways. there is already a thread going on domestic violence.
so apart from DV women do sometimes have to worry about stranger danger. i often hear the advise of get a gun or pepper spray. this is also something that falls into the delusion category. as far as a gun, it will do no good if the person does not have the mental capacity to take another human beings life. some people will find it difficult to make that decision to use a firearm.
what other delusions and false presumptions are there?