Battered Women and Martial Arts

[TKDman]

Well I just got done watching Enough, and I thought it was a unrealistic joke of a movie. Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

This movie was about a battered woman that took up some training and killed her husband in hand to hand combat. (About as funny as J.I. Jane) Sadly many women believe this could happen so they take up martial arts and believe they can become Super Women. I believe this is a waste of time for the woman, she needs counsiling and a handgun, not some MA training no matter what type it is. I agree with the man on 24fightingchickens.com:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html

What do you think about this situation?

 

[Kirk]

I don't know ... fist of fury's sifu is about 1/3 my size ... there's 2
b.b.'s in my school that are about 1/2 my size ... any one of them
can hand me my ****. Why? Because they're WAY WAY WAY
more skilled than I am. My size will possibly cause them to
not walk away unscathed, but nevertheless they WILL walk away.

Skilled woman vs. unskilled attacker ... I think the woman could
be the one to walk away. I've met 2 female kenpo b.b.'s ... I think
they could handle themselves very well. Besides their skill,
there's also the element of surprise. Most won't suspect that
they're trained.

Skilled woman vs. skilled man with weight advantage ... I'd hand
the victory over to the man .. that's why there's weight divisions
in most contact fighting sports.

 

[Michael Billings]

If I believed that, I would be hard pressed to teach what I teach.

I guess I may be a little more optimistic, of course I have seen some Kenpo women that now box professionally full-contact. I personally would not want to "take it to them" and I feel sorry for anyone who makes the erroneous assuption that they cannot hurt you.

This is probably a function of your experiences in the Arts and with specific female student in particular. I would not want to stand in front of any woman throwing hard knees, elbows and trying to go for my eyes, throat and groin.

Remember, what you saw was Hollywood. Serious effective training, over a period of years leads to serious committed students and martial artists ... regardless of gender.

Respectfully Disagreeing,
-Michael

 

[KanoLives]

I'll say it was an interesting article that made some points, but I have a point. Where I study we are being taught to poke and claw peoples eyes. I think if a woman does that to anyone no matter the size it's definetely going to have an effect on the attacker. Maybe it will only give her a couple of seconds to run but none the less it will have an effect. I mean seriously I think the most important part of Martial Arts is knowing your targets. It wouldn't make sense for a woman to try and go head up or toe to toe with a guy. Now if she can quickly strike him in the eyes, throat, groin then she does have a chance of continuing the attack or trying to get away from the attacker. I'll tell ya we have a female 2nd degree B.B instructor that teaches once in a while. From what I've seen she would be able to handle herself and has from a couple of stories she's told. But to say that martial arts is a waste of time and money I can't agree with no matter man or woman. This stuff has been proven through time and if it didn't work I'm sure we wouldn't be hanging on to it as if it did. Ya just have to be commited to what you will do. If you're going to poke someone's eye out you have to be commited to the act and realize that you are going to take someone's eye out.

just my 2 cents though.

:asian:

 

[TKDman]

"Battered Women"

Not amazons!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, "TKD Man's," argument comes under the heading of self-fulfilling prophecy. Women get taught by men who believe that women shouldn't be taught because they can't defend themselves against men, and hey, guess what? They produce women students who can't defend themselves, which proves that women shouldn't be taught because they can't...

I also really enjoy the fantasies that a) all men in martial arts are able to defend themselves no matter what, b) men are naturally superior ("superior spatial perception," my foot), c) size doesn't matter for men, but it does for women...

I probably couldn't defend myself against some of the big guys I've met any better than TKD says women can defend themselves. I too would have to go after something soft and squishy and run like crazy...so should I give the belt back?

And above all, here's the basic fallacy: that self-defense is exactly the same as sparring/NHB "combat," in a tiny little ring.

Some years ago, my first instructor--female, 5'0" has a license to teach signed by Mr. Parker himself--read an article about a Seattle area woman black belt. Guy broke into her house, assaulted her while she slept. They fought for about a half an hour. He broke her arm. She killed him with the poker, which she fought her way downstairs to, apparently. Yep, I guess women can't.

 

[MartialArtist]

A smaller man may very well beat a much larger man if he has the skills. If they have equal skills, it depends on their physical attribtues like speed, coordination, power, etc. If those are equal, which is VERY unlikely, then the larger man will most likely win because he can exert less force to get the same result.

As for women, not to be sexist, but they are physically slower, weaker, and less powerful. They are built differently than humans, especially the hips (which dictate almost all motion). A woman may be able to win, but a 5'2" 120 pound woman vs. a 300 pound man... Not very likely, unless the guy is hella slow where the woman can just kick the guy so he can no longer have children.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by TKDman
Well I just got done watching Enough, and I thought it was a unrealistic joke of a movie. Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

This movie was about a battered woman that took up some training and killed her husband in hand to hand combat. (About as funny as J.I. Jane) Sadly many women believe this could happen so they take up martial arts and believe they can become Super Women. I believe this is a waste of time for the woman, she needs counsiling and a handgun, not some MA training no matter what type it is. I agree with the man on 24fightingchickens.com:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html

What do you think about this situation?

Anyway, I do remember me chatting about him (e-mail) and the topic moved to Bruce Lee. The man said he was overrated, I agreed. The man also said he was an urban legend who had no contribution to the arts, took steroids, etc. Hmmmm... Okay, whatever. His example of how a smaller man can't beat a larger man was that his 2-year old can't hit hard enough to hurt him.

 

[sweeper]

uhm.. I presume you mean meninstead of humans right?

Never saw enough because I figured it would be stupid.. as someone who knows a little about fighting hollywood fighting never looks good to me, so unless it is suppoed to be a spectacle like in the matrix, I tend not to like it.

as to the article, made some sence.. I think there is a large diffrence between martial art and self deffence.. they are two seperate issues only related in as much as someone may hit someone else in either catagory.. now some MA schools teach self deffence or psudo self deffence, but still there is not nessisaraly a direct relation..

As to women and men beating each other up.. If a big guy has absolutly no skill in fighting my bet is on a skilled smaller opponant.. If the big guy does have skill and experience, the odds are greatly against the smaller person.. If the attacker has a knife odds are near rock bottom for deffender, even lower if the attacke ris good with a knife.. Women aren't structured as well for some physical activities as men.. It realy deppends.. Just look at recreational sports, compare womens college soccer to mens college soccer, or womens sprint times to mens.. now in middle and long distances women start to catch up to men in track, but some things (like shotputt or hammer throw) men are just gona dominate at..

But for a self deffence situation that doesn't involve a weapon women don't need to best a man in an all out match, they just have to make the guy deside it isn't worth it. So going all out like you are gona kill the guy could make them change their mind.

I think better advise would be to carry a knife or a pen or some sort of small legal weapon that you can keep in your hand anywhere where it's posable you are gona get attacked.. know how to use whatever it is, that will be even more intimidating.. And of course be very aware of everything around you.

What I do not agree with is the suprise responce thing.. I can be a little jumpy myself and I have almost hit a few people who snuck up on me.. But anyone should be able to analyse a threat almost instantly.. To give an example I think I have braught up before.. a wial ago My freind came over to my house.. My brother didn't tell me he was comming over and I didn't know. I heard someone come in and keys jingle and figgured it was my mother returning from work, he quietly opened my door (my back was to the door using my computer) and I assummed it was my mother going to ask me how school went.. He screamed wial holding a 3 ring binder over his head, I jumped out of my chair, spun and almost took his head off.. but I dropped my arm before I hit him because In that split second of major suprise ("there's a screaming man behind me in my home"), in the time it took me to whip around and almost hit him I recognised his face saw he was only holding a book and realised there was no threat. I'm always jumpy when I don't realise there is someone behind me than there is some indication that there is (usualy jumping around) But I have never hurt someone.. although if someone were to present a legitimate threat from past experience I'm fairly confident I could meet their challenge although perhaps not in a psychologicly optimal condition.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
As for women, not to be sexist, but they are physically slower, weaker, and less powerful. They are built differently than humans, especially the hips (which dictate almost all motion). A woman may be able to win, but a 5'2" 120 pound woman vs. a 300 pound man... Not very likely, unless the guy is hella slow where the woman can just kick the guy so he can no longer have children.

I'm sorry, I'm not normally one to get on a soap box, but now you've pissed me off. What exactly do you mean when you say that women are built differently than HUMANS? As for whether or not a woman could conceivably take on a male attacker who outweighs her, is quicker, more powerful, ya da, ya da, ya da... I have been physically attacked on two seperate occasions by men. The first was by a group of males, the second was by a single attacker. After a lot of hard work with my teachers/trainers, I am fully confidant that I could take on either scenario again and come out the winner. Why? Because we have enacted various scenarious with multiple complications on any number of occasions that take into account any number of variations, (i.e. height, strength, build, speed, determination, etc. of the attacker) and I would happily kill before becoming a victim again. That's probably the number one thing women have to overcome - we are taught to be "nice". I've been described as being an "iron fist in a velvet glove". I still come across as nice, but don't cross me or I WILL HURT YOU. Don't even think of hurting someone I love, or the same philosophy applies.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by TKDman
Not to be sexist or anything, but I truly do not think that a smaller person could take down a larger attacker whether they be male or female. In extreme cases a small man may be able to defeat a larger attacker, but most of the time the bigger person wins. I know what your saying, "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog".

What do you think about this situation?

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

A smaller female can definitely take out a larger male. I've done it.

The ONLY reasons I was able to do it were that I had:

1. the element of surprise. he wasn't expecting me to fight back.
2. a heck of a lot of adrenaline. I saw it coming, but didn't know how to stop it.
3. ten years of kenpo training that took over when I panicked
4. a heck of a lot of dumb luck.

Do not underestimate a frightened opponent who is backed up against a wall (in my case, literally).

The thing is... If I hadn't spent 10 years training in martial arts, I wouldn't have had the option of using it. What I did wasn't "ideal phase" kenpo. But it was kenpo, and it worked. I wasn't thinking about using kenpo when I did it. I wasn't thinking anything at all. The world went into slow motion, and the targets were just...there. Soft tissue targets don't require a lot of brute strength.

Martial arts for women isn't going to make you a UFC fighter, or a bar brawler or whatever. Its that last ditch gotta-do-something-or-I'm-gonna-die weapon. Its there when you are by yourself in a bad situation with no one out there to come to your rescue. It may or may not work. If it doesn't, you're probably not going to be any worse off in the end than if you did nothing. If it does work, you might end up like me... walking away with an injured wrist, but not raped or murdered, with the other guy out cold on the concrete.

respectfully,

-N-

 

[Damian Mavis]

TKDman... are you saying that no woman anywere can beat up a man? Or are you just saying that such women are rare? Because even fighting chicken guy doesn't say "ALL women" and on top of that I read about, hear about and have seen women beat the crap out of men many times. I think it's rare but I know for a fact that it's possible and been done many times. If you refuse to accept that there are women capable of such things I think you need to do some research.

Martial Artist, was that a mistake when you inferred that women weren't actually human? haha I think you just pissed off oh... I don't know...over a billion people.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Patty
I'm sorry, I'm not normally one to get on a soap box, but now you've pissed me off. What exactly do you mean when you say that women are built differently than HUMANS? As for whether or not a woman could conceivably take on a male attacker who outweighs her, is quicker, more powerful, ya da, ya da, ya da... I have been physically attacked on two seperate occasions by men. The first was by a group of males, the second was by a single attacker. After a lot of hard work with my teachers/trainers, I am fully confidant that I could take on either scenario again and come out the winner. Why? Because we have enacted various scenarious with multiple complications on any number of occasions that take into account any number of variations, (i.e. height, strength, build, speed, determination, etc. of the attacker) and I would happily kill before becoming a victim again. That's probably the number one thing women have to overcome - we are taught to be "nice". I've been described as being an "iron fist in a velvet glove". I still come across as nice, but don't cross me or I WILL HURT YOU. Don't even think of hurting someone I love, or the same philosophy applies.

OOPS! MY MISTAKE.

I meant built differently than men... Sorry, it wasn't intentional!

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
TKDman... are you saying that no woman anywere can beat up a man? Or are you just saying that such women are rare? Because even fighting chicken guy doesn't say "ALL women" and on top of that I read about, hear about and have seen women beat the crap out of men many times. I think it's rare but I know for a fact that it's possible and been done many times. If you refuse to accept that there are women capable of such things I think you need to do some research.

Martial Artist, was that a mistake when you inferred that women weren't actually human? haha I think you just pissed off oh... I don't know...over a billion people.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

LOL, I'm sorry. I meant men, not human.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

See folks, theres nothing 'human' about 'men'.

:rofl:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nope, no good. Ya meant the binary opposition, "women," vs. "humans," as the remainder of your post makes clear.

One thing to keep in mind is that men get to define what "strength," means, then turn around and claim that women don't have any. By some measures--ability to tolerate pain, for example, which might be considered important in self-defense--women are suspected to be superior. They certainly get on martial arts forums and complain about men a lot less.

I'd be willing to let the other respondents arguments stand, though I'd be interested to know what folks think about a) the way men sometimes undercut women's training in the martial arts on the grounds that they're "not strong enough," or "too small," or whatever (I happen to know a martial artist who's about 4'11" and he is as good a martial artist as I'll ever see anywhere, and quite capable of defending himself against a guy I know who's 6'9" and a second degree BB), or b) the fact that not all male BBs are equally good at everything in the martial arts, either...and shouldn't quit training. I mean, Bill Wallace will always be outta my league...should I give the belt back?

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

A smaller female can definitely take out a larger male. I've done it.

<snip>

I agree with Nightingale - as long as the woman isn't built really really tiny (obviously there are limits, a woman with an almost child-like physique is going to struggle to take a guy out) she can totally take out a grown man.

In Enough, she basically batters him to death if I remember rightly, and in this sense I'm not saying it would work, but as Nightingale said, she used her kenpo to strike soft targets, which is exactly th right thing to do. Take out a guy's eyes, and he can't see you to hit you, take away his breath, and he has no strength to hit you, take away his knees, and he has no legs to kick you....

I'm sure that most women in Martial Arts believe that they can use what they're learning, and it's this self confidence that is likely to let them do just that. Certainly when I teach my Kenpo class, I wouldn't be able to lie to all my female students - they know I'm teaching them good stuff and also that I'm telling them the truth about it.

Ian.

 

[FST]

Some time ago I read an editorial written by a martial arts instructor in which he discussed a change in the mentality he used to teach women and men. Originally, the women trained from a more sport approach and when they fought against bigger more skilled men they did poorly. They had the goal to defeat the opponent and this required that they continue to fight and go toe to toe. He then changed the mentality to one of escape rather than defeat. When this approach was used the women did much better against bigger and more skilled opponents with the goal of escape. In fact it worked so well that he now teaches this mentality to his men as well. If a woman (or man) focus is based on escape from the violent encounter then a smaller person can succeed against a larger opponent. I use this approach and the women where I train do quite well against larger and more skilled men because they are not trying to beat them but get away from them.

 

[TKDman]

*Cough Cough Nudge Nudge* BATTERED WOMEN

I wanted to talk about Battered women, not another endless post about Male vs Female. I don't want to agrue with the women here and be smeared about the obvious. That issue can never be resolved as long as political correctness and hollywood exist.

I mentioned the movie "Enough" and how unrealistic it was. A potential battered woman joins the martial arts and beats up her husband. I think this gives battered women a bad idea...

Some battered women join the MA thinking they can become super women...

Well, lets hear it.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by TKDman
*Cough Cough Nudge Nudge* BATTERED WOMEN

I wanted to talk about Battered women, not another endless post about Male vs Female. I don't want to agrue with the women here and be smeared about the obvious. That issue can never be resolved as long as political correctness and hollywood exist.

Your thinly veiled sexist attitude seems to be what touched off the male vs. female dissucusion.

As for abused women, the least martial arts can do for them is give them some self-confidence so that they can get out of their situation and get themselves help from the right places. Can it give them the skills to beat up their abuser? It might.

Often the outcome of a fight can be determined simply by how motivated one person is to hurt the other. It's entirely possible that the built up rage of a battered woman could be enough motivation for her to seriously injure or kill her male abuser, even without any martial skills. Knowing how to seriously injure or kill with their hands or with nearby weapons wouldn't lower their chances. (Could be better than standing trial for shooting the bastard while he's sleeping.)

Are you really worried about a movie like "Enough" giving battered women unrealistic ideas? I think a few weeks in any legitimate martial art or self-defence class will set them straight. Most people know better than to trust Hollywood, even desparate people.