martial art in Babylion 3000 BC?

[still learning]

Hello, Did you know the found in caves of the Babylion 3000 BC drawing in of people doing kicks,throws, punching. But Asia gets the credits for todays martial arts. (found this on kempo..not sure which one?)

There are Africans who says they were the first martial arts...because man first came from Africa before spreading all over the world. They had to learn to fight too!

We will never really know the begining of martial arts...but the training for our future kids will never stop...people will always fight each other...for the next few hundred years more....Aloha

 

[stone_dragone]

Partial exerpt from my handbook:

Cultures from every corner of the globe have some form of combat system to dispel his enemies. Conversely, not every culture has a martial art. What is a martial art? How does it differ from a combat system? There is one easy distinction between the two: a combat system is designed with the expressed intent to either cause bodily harm to another person or to keep them from doing so to you. A martial art, on the other hand, combines philosophic teachings with the physical aspect.

Just a theory: Even untrained fighters from the same geographical region will fight in a similar manner (similar goals, "techniques" etc).

My two cents.

 

[Fluffy]

This brings up the question; What makes up a Martial art? Is it a system? An application? Or if a lost culture from 5000 years ago paint on a wall somewhere a few kicks - is that proof of a martial art?

 

[painstain]

i have read and watched studies on this topic. not that i know much at all about it. abraham of the bible was a great "warrior" and military leader (as far as the program had said). david was described as one of the best warriors of the time and again was a great military leader. prior to these two, was egypt and phaeroh. they are the oldest military and combative societies i've heard of. they had their own special fighting techniques empty handed and with weapons. but it always seems more like a military thing rather than martial arts.

with respect
painstain

 

[Kreth]

Martial arts were born when Og swatted Grok over a piece of charred mammoth meat.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Martial arts were born when Og swatted Grok over a piece of charred mammoth meat.

Priceless LOL!! :rofl:

 

[Jenna]

Martial arts were born when Og swatted Grok over a piece of charred mammoth meat.

...and still today the followers of Og and the followers of Grok cannot agree on whose system is the correct one..

Seriously this is a valid point.. that we are on a relentless quest for the most ancient martial arts and I am certain the Babylonians had some fighting system .. after all there must have been a deal of physical confrontations brought about through the jealousy and acrimony over whos hanging gardens had the nicest rhododendrons, ha!

But I wonder sometimes why we have this need to know our art is backed up by a wealth of warriorlike history as though without it there is no validation in what we practice.. I dunno.. you guys.. Stop fighting.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Kreth]

But I wonder sometimes why we have this need to know our art is backed up by a wealth of warriorlike history as though without it there is no validation in what we practice.. I dunno.. you guys.. Stop fighting.

Well, a verifiable lineage can give you some assurance that what you're doing has been tested, and isn't, say... some 20-year-old's idea of ninjitsu [sic] that he compiled from anime and Ashida Kim books.

 

[Jenna]

Well, a verifiable lineage can give you some assurance that what you're doing has been tested, and isn't, say... some 20-year-old's idea of ninjitsu [sic] that he compiled from anime and Ashida Kim books.

of course mister Kreth.. point taken.. none of us would drive a new car that had not been tested under severe stress etc. etc. blah blah.. but are you saying we NEED a verifiable lineage in order to make a martial art worthwhile relevant or with merit? All arts were new and untested once, yes? even 5006 y/o Babylonian stuff was once newfangled and contemporary modern. My point .. yeah I am making a point woohoo imagine that.. sorry.. my point is that nowadays we are often not even prepared to give a new thing in martial arts a chance in the face of its historically proven (and probably romantically eastern) counterparts.. I think this is snobbery plain and simple.. but WTH do I know? LOL.. now.. back to where the REAL martial arts are.. these realistic Manga comics.. it is the future of MA right here on these pages in vivid colour I tell ya

Be good,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Kreth]

of course mister Kreth.. point taken.. none of us would drive a new car that had not been tested under severe stress etc. etc. blah blah.. but are you saying we NEED a verifiable lineage in order to make a martial art worthwhile relevant or with merit? All arts were new and untested once, yes? even 5006 y/o Babylonian stuff was once newfangled and contemporary modern. My point .. yeah I am making a point woohoo imagine that.. sorry.. my point is that nowadays we are often not even prepared to give a new thing in martial arts a chance in the face of its historically proven (and probably romantically eastern) counterparts.. I think this is snobbery plain and simple.. but WTH do I know? LOL.. now.. back to where the REAL martial arts are.. these realistic Manga comics.. it is the future of MA right here on these pages in vivid colour I tell ya

Be good,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

There are only so many ways to fold, spindle, or otherwise mutilate a human body. I find it hard to believe that anyone can come up with a revolutionary new way of doing so that has never been thought of. It's also kind of funny that most of these new systems seem to be based on pieces of older systems. Well, if you are the very essence of martial skill (as some of these "inventors" seem to think), then why not make your entire system from scratch?

 

[jks9199]

Martial arts were born when Og swatted Grok over a piece of charred mammoth meat.

I beg to differ...

Martial arts/training was born when Og then went out and showed his son Oog how he got dinner from Grok!

 

[trueaspirer]

Well, if you're going to get into it...
What defines a martial art in this sense? Is it the ability to fight? Or is it some sort of philosophical attatchment to the fighting ability that defines the term "martial art"? When you say you are a martial artist, what does that mean? Anyone can call their fighting style a martial art. Doesn't make it one. A lot of people consider the MMAs to not be real martial arts. I am not here to debate that specific topic, but it is one point that has been brought up. Humans have been fighting ever since their creation, but that property is not restricted to humans. All animals fight - over territorial rights, food, a mate, etc. Many of these are the same, on a more comlicated level, that humans fight over.
So a fight starts. Two or more people fight, one or some of them win/survive and life moves on. That doesn't mean that the fight involved martial arts. Again, back to what defines martial arts. I don't really have a specific answer, this was more a pouring out of some of my thoughts on the subject, but it sparked my curiosity. Where is the technical difference? I don't know.

 

[Kreth]

I beg to differ...

Martial arts/training was born when Og then went out and showed his son Oog how he got dinner from Grok!

Actually, yes, you're right. Fighting does not make a martial art, it's transmission of fighting skills.

 

[Flying Crane]

There are only so many ways to fold, spindle, or otherwise mutilate a human body. I find it hard to believe that anyone can come up with a revolutionary new way of doing so that has never been thought of. It's also kind of funny that most of these new systems seem to be based on pieces of older systems. Well, if you are the very essence of martial skill (as some of these "inventors" seem to think), then why not make your entire system from scratch?

You are right, and all arts in existance today came from other, older arts. They may have been remixed, there may have been a certain amount of "insight" that the founder had, but yes, it is all based on older stuff, even that which we call "old" today.

But I think Jenna has a good point. There is a tendency to poop on "new" arts (I am guilty of this as much as anyone), but these new arts just might be as effective, or more so, than some/many/all of the older ones. Even if all the "founder" has done is a remix of older stuff, this is no different than the other, more established arts that we have today. If the remix was from good stuff, then the new product could also be good stuff.

Just another way of looking at it.

 

[Robert Lee]

You have to look at Martial art. It is based on concepts of the different fighting arts from China Okinawa And Japan. Other areas it was called something else. It may look near as some M/A arts do but clearly something else. So wouldnt M/A relate to Asiain based Arts. We can go back and try to figure who invented the wheel But what good is it to do that. We have no real proof Man came out of africa Just an Idea base that says man did. M/A traces to What we see as Asia Today we see much changes to it that holds it more as preserved rather then the old training that made it what it was. 100 years from now how will it evolve or be seen.

 

[Dark]

There are only so many ways to fold, spindle, or otherwise mutilate a human body. I find it hard to believe that anyone can come up with a revolutionary new way of doing so that has never been thought of. It's also kind of funny that most of these new systems seem to be based on pieces of older systems. Well, if you are the very essence of martial skill (as some of these "inventors" seem to think), then why not make your entire system from scratch?

Well some very well do, take Roma-Boxing AKA: Gypsy Streetfighting, the basic training format is blind expiernce. An older more weathered family member lets two kids beat the crap out of each other and simply corrects them about what they did right and wrong. It interestingly enough ended up loking like muay thai.

Later on these bare knuckleboxing events became the "Hey I'll fight for your horse" type duels of older Europe. These "street-fighting" arts later on came to make impressions on Savate schools, especially the concept of sweep which was considered dishonest.

Roma-Fencing called the same thing, was basically kids hitting each other with sticks while an adult told them which one's would kill you which ones wouldn't when used with a sword. I tend to see it kinda the same way as their are no new arts just new styles of using the same stuff.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Forgot to mention Babylion is now known as parts of Iran/Iraq. Funny today we have a new form of fighting (terrorism). It been around..but more noticeable and deadly today?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

This brings up the question; What makes up a Martial art? Is it a system? An application? Or if a lost culture from 5000 years ago paint on a wall somewhere a few kicks - is that proof of a martial art?

Martial= Warlike, Of or pertaining to Mars, Roman god of war.

Art= Human creativity, that which is created intuitively or spontaneously, form or shape given to one's ideas/intentions, creation simply for its own sake.

Martial Art= intuitive or spontaneous form or shape given to one's warlike ideas/intentions.

 

[Fluffy]

Martial= Warlike, Of or pertaining to Mars, Roman god of war.

Art= Human creativity, that which is created intuitively or spontaneously, form or shape given to one's ideas/intentions, creation simply for its own sake.

Martial Art= intuitive or spontaneous form or shape given to one's warlike ideas/intentions.

So, under that definition - you do not need form nor application, my 5 y/o can beat up one of his classmates with a kick he just practiced and it would be a martial art?

Have you posted that definition before? I think I read it not to long ago.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Most of what I heard is that most modern martial arts can be traced back to egypt. Were they got is a debated topic. Some say they made it, some say they got it from other places. Odds are it is based on various styles from various places and native stuffs systhised into a few differnit things.