Manners or Kenpo?

[jdinca]

There is nothing wrong with tradition. Please do not take that as my intent. I find that respect in the arts to be a refreshing thing, but sadly a sign of an older time. Today, it is too often about paying the rent, not instilling discipline in little Tommy. Even so, respect shouldn't be limited to just those in your circle.

My comment actually had nothing to do with what you've written. Perusing a number of martial arts forums provides plenty of evidence.

Properly done, instilling discipline in little Tommy will pay the rent. It's a shame that there are those out there who just don't seem to understand that.

Respect must be given to those who deserve it, regardless of whether they are inside your circle, or out of it. Another basic civility that seems to be going by the wayside.

 

[MJS]

Contrast that with Kenpo.
You have masters, and senior masters, and professors and sensei this and sifu that and everyone sirs everyone to death. You sit by color belt rank, and you line up for food by time served, and no one starts to eat until the guy with the most stripes has burped, but first you must say grace. It looks so regimental, so "British". But, underneath all this forced respect, and artificial order, lies egomaniacs, despots, poor manners, and a serious lack of disrespect for anyone who doesn't kenpoo the way that youdoo.

I agree. You have people with high rank, a title to their name, and they do not act accordingly. Take EPAK for example. You have many Senior ranks who've trained with Mr. Parker. Those people have their students and their interpretation of the art. However, there are some that look down on those that didn't spend as much time as others, training with Parker, and those that look down upon people because, as you said, they do something different. What makes them any more right or wrong than the next guy? Perhaps people should spend more time on their own training and worry less what others do.

Your art is probably the most documented, most published and most structured of any out there, yet you will wage holy war over who is in your upline. Guys will stand on high and proclaim how many decades they have in, as if that means something. Yet, they have all the temperament and maturity of a 17 year old school yard bully. They engage in childish games, and boorish behavior that in any cultured circle would find the offender expelled and his membership revoked. Yet, here they are sir and master and professor.

Hmm...can't disagree with this either. Looking around at some of the various forums out there, I've seen alot of examples of what you said.

I have read complaints from a few of this site's rejected souls elsewhere, then researched their posts. The common ground for them all, they are bullies who resent being told 'no'. Some of these bullies are still here, for now. I suspect soon they will join their kin in exile, and proclaim loudly on lesser read sites how "mistreated" they were. The reality of course is, they are common trash with a great number of stripes on their bag.

Perhaps they're too blind to see their own actions.

One can be a lady or gentleman and a martial artist both. The idea of personal enrichment is alive in the arts. It is alive in the art of kenpo as well, I can see it in the founders words. Why those who claim to have studied for decades have not managed to grow up however, is a mystery this Master cannot answer. Instead they lurk here, hiding cowardly behind a false mask of affabilty all the while seeking instead to forment discord and bring disruption upon us, playing the victim of others malice. In the common language, they are called trolls, though troll might be too kind for some, or too intelligent a term. They know who they are.

Yup.

So, answer for yourselves. Will you be enriched by your art, strive to become more than you are, and be a gentleman? Or, will you stay or sink to the level of a common street thug, only with fancier dance steps to amuse your victims as you bully them for lunch money?

The choice my dear people is always yours.

For me, I remain, The Master.

I do my best to be respectful to people, but I've always been of the thought that respect is a two way street. In other words, you need to give it to get it. Unlike some that I've seen, I don't demand respect, I earn it, because of my actions.

 

[thetruth]

No my friend, I am not him. For he is the ultimate ninja, why would he bother with kenpo?
.

I hope you are joking but with the strange tone that seems to be associated with your posts it is hard to tell. Also, I didn't ask you how many styles you did (you answered several), I asked you which styles you did. So which styles do you do???

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Shotochem]

Hi All,

I just couldn't resist.........

Racheim
Eveyrwhere I turn theyre playing Racheim
Every wedding, every Dinner, Racheim
Even on the planes theyre playing Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

Racheim
Why is everybody singing Racheim
Why does everyone request that Racheim
I'm so sick of listening to Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

We can all remember Didoh Bei (thats a nice song)
Chazak, Moshiach, they played all day
But now theyre forgotten, gone away
Now it's Racheim, Racheim, Racheim!

I had a kumzitz in my shul
And a big chagigah in my school
But they just sang over and over again
Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

Part 2:

Racheim
I'm so sick of listening to Racheim
Every place I go theyre playing Racheim
I try to shut it out but all I hear is Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

Racheim
I go to shul , Kedusha sounds like RACHEIM!
I go to Europe, thyere all playing Racheim
My cell phone rings, it's ringing rrrracheim! rrrracheim! rrrracheim!

My litvishe friends they all sound the same
When they open their mouths to sing Racheim
But my chasidishe friends who come from Der Heim
Deyre singing Rachaim, Rachaim, Rachaim

I must admit even though it makes me ill
People everywhere love it still
And I know this may sound lame
But one day I think I'll miss Racheim

-Marc-

 

[CoryKS]

Kenpo Jihad! Kenpo Jihad on you!

 

[The Master]

I hope you are joking but with the strange tone that seems to be associated with your posts it is hard to tell. Also, I didn't ask you how many styles you did (you answered several), I asked you which styles you did. So which styles do you do???

Cheers
Sam:asian:

That is a sidebar to the discussion, but a short one.

I train in a personal hybrid of techniques that suit my own personal goals. I train where I can, seeking a greater knowledge of all of the arts. Some will say "non answer", but it is the truth.

 

[The Master]

That is a sidebar to the discussion, but a short one.

I train in a personal hybrid of techniques that suit my own personal goals. I train where I can, seeking a greater knowledge of all of the arts. Some will say "non answer", but it is the truth.

It is interesting comparing reaction and response to my writings. Here, it seems that the majority of individuals understand what my point is, and in fact have expanded upon it to include similar situations in other arts. On another site, I am attacked, insulted, and infracted, and on another yet, ridiculed, often by these same 'kenpo bullies' I speak of. They merely prove my theory correct by their actions.
I think it says much of the maturity of those here, who can understand my sometimes verbose and cryptic pen.

 

[The Master]

Song and jest. How amusing. I am afraid I am unfamiliar with that tune. ??

 

[thetruth]

Ok John (the master) let me reword my question. What styles have you studied in the past that now make up this personal hybrid you speak of?? Also,what have you said in these other forums to warrant attack from these 'kenpo bullies' you speak of? I have been kicked out of a 1 forum numerous times under numerous names for simply asking questions.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The copy of this post he posted at KenpoTalk got quite heated. No clue where else it might have been posted.
http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510

Personally, I think his OP can apply to alot of arts. I've seen the same thing happen in JKD, FMA, KMA and more. *shrug*

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Those who are quick to dismiss another's POV are usually quick to dismiss other Arts or even those who don't practice their art the way they do. Often times they don't even have a problem dismissing another person.

Those on this thread and the one on Kenpotalk who have jumped up to dismiss 'the master' have themselves proven his point in the original post.

I enjoy MT & KT because it affords me the opportunity to see how other's view their own art. For example, it could be easy to dismiss Tae Kwon Do as a legitimate art because all of us are bothered by the belt factories that are always within a mile or two of us at all times but if you peruse through the Tae Kwon Do forum on MT you will find TKD practitioners bothered by this and hear what the art is really about. Those that have come here to dismiss others to me are only distractions to the goal. I usually speed read or skip their posts.

_Don Flatt

 

[Shotochem]

The copy of this post he posted at KenpoTalk got quite heated. No clue where else it might have been posted.
http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510

Personally, I think his OP can apply to alot of arts. I've seen the same thing happen in JKD, FMA, KMA and more. *shrug*

I am in complete agreement. In my former art Shotokan, it was much like what John had stated.

We had an abundance of know it all closed minded individuals who were afraid of change. They masked their politics and egos with the cloak of humility, perfection of character, and my favorite, it's a way of life$$$$$. Some people took themselves way to seriously.

I found that unless you capitulated and drank the kool aid so to speak, you were considered a heretic and an outcast. The BB was considered high above the glass ceiling unless you were a blind follower of the master. No questions, do it my way, our way is better.

They found it hard to believe I trained for enjoyment rather than enlightenment.

They were insulted I did not place as high a value on rank as I did on personal knowledge and fufillment.

My old training partners still haven't even spoken to me since I have moved on.

Blasphemy, heresey, so be it. Burn me at the stake.......

Sorry about my little rant......

This post remined me why I left and and switched to Kempo. It's been a year with my new org and I have seen none of what I posted above.


-Marc-

 

[The Master]

Ok John (the master) let me reword my question. What styles have you studied in the past that now make up this personal hybrid you speak of?? Also,what have you said in these other forums to warrant attack from these 'kenpo bullies' you speak of? I have been kicked out of a 1 forum numerous times under numerous names for simply asking questions.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Mr. Hubbard was kind enough to post the link to the main center of disagreement. Some of those involved have since been ejected for their poor manners it seems, and have gone elsewhere to continue the war, one sided as it is there as I refuse to follow to play.

I have experienced several of the kenpos and kempos, including Parker, Tracy and Shorinji Kempo. Some Pekiti-Tirsia, some Balintawak, some Arnis, and several other Fillipino arts I can not recall the name of. Several different kara-te's, 2 different flavors if you will of the ninja arts, hung gar, preyingmantis, wing chun, jkd, and a half dozen sword arts both eastern and western. I have done several styles of grappling, though again the names escape my recall at the moment. It is, what it is, and that is what works for me as I research and explore.

The copy of this post he posted at KenpoTalk got quite heated. No clue where else it might have been posted.
http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510

Personally, I think his OP can apply to alot of arts. I've seen the same thing happen in JKD, FMA, KMA and more. *shrug*

Thank you for being one of those who as it were, "get it".

Those who are quick to dismiss another's POV are usually quick to dismiss other Arts or even those who don't practice their art the way they do. Often times they don't even have a problem dismissing another person.

Those on this thread and the one on Kenpotalk who have jumped up to dismiss 'the master' have themselves proven his point in the original post.

I enjoy MT & KT because it affords me the opportunity to see how other's view their own art. For example, it could be easy to dismiss Tae Kwon Do as a legitimate art because all of us are bothered by the belt factories that are always within a mile or two of us at all times but if you peruse through the Tae Kwon Do forum on MT you will find TKD practitioners bothered by this and hear what the art is really about. Those that have come here to dismiss others to me are only distractions to the goal. I usually speed read or skip their posts.

_Don Flatt

Thank you for being one of those who as it were, "get it".
Both sites are excellent sites, with the riff raff as it were, far between.

I am in complete agreement. In my former art Shotokan, it was much like what John had stated.

We had an abundance of know it all closed minded individuals who were afraid of change. They masked their politics and egos with the cloak of humility, perfection of character, and my favorite, it's a way of life$$$$$. Some people took themselves way to seriously.

I found that unless you capitulated and drank the kool aid so to speak, you were considered a heretic and an outcast. The BB was considered high above the glass ceiling unless you were a blind follower of the master. No questions, do it my way, our way is better.

They found it hard to believe I trained for enjoyment rather than enlightenment.

They were insulted I did not place as high a value on rank as I did on personal knowledge and fufillment.

My old training partners still haven't even spoken to me since I have moved on.

Blasphemy, heresey, so be it. Burn me at the stake.......

Sorry about my little rant......

This post remined me why I left and and switched to Kempo. It's been a year with my new org and I have seen none of what I posted above.


-Marc-

Thank you. :asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

It is interesting comparing reaction and response to my writings. Here, it seems that the majority of individuals understand what my point is, and in fact have expanded upon it to include similar situations in other arts. On another site, I am attacked, insulted, and infracted, and on another yet, ridiculed, often by these same 'kenpo bullies' I speak of. They merely prove my theory correct by their actions.
I think it says much of the maturity of those here, who can understand my sometimes verbose and cryptic pen.

I think much of what you are referring to here, has to do with the fact that Martialtalk has a wide variety of individuals who practice a wide variety of martial arts.

I believe there is a potential trap that is accidentally laid down on sites like Kenpotalk, where the subject of discussions is primarily one single art and its various derivatives. Under these conditions, it becomes easy to begin patting oneself on the back for practicing the "best" art in the world, and there are none to disagree or dispute the claim, and that is the trap that many seem to walk into.

That seems to be a role I have taken on to some degree on Kenpotalk. I see people post claims about kenpo and Mr. Parker, that really strike me as naive. Some people seem to think that Mr. Parker and kenpo have some kind of monopoly on effective methods, strategies, and techniques, and no other arts have figured this stuff out. I think that Mr. Parker perhaps went farthest in trying to document, describe, and label things, but that doesn't mean other arts don't understand the very same things, be it by a different name, or unnamed altogether. So I tend to point this out, and sometimes people take offense, and I think that I am not the most popular member over there. I think they believe I am attacking kenpo, or Mr. Parker, and that is not true. Kenpo was my first art, and I am currently retraining in it. But I have studied enough other arts to know the fallacy of some of the claims made by people over there, when comparing kenpo to other arts. If some of those same comments were posted over here, where more people from other arts would comment, I am sure these silly notions would be shot down very quickly.

So I certainly understand the points you are making. My experience with other arts have also exposed me to politics and in-fighting, some as intense as kenpo, others very little. But I think there is a lot of truth in what you say in this and the other threads. It seems to me that some members simply don't like it when you dispute something they might say. I think they expect everyone to simply accept their word unquestioningly, and they resent it when others point out holes in their stories. I have had that experience when I suggested something one senior kenpist said didn't make sense. It wasn't even about a finer point of technique or something, rather it was more a general analogy that was made. I thought it might lead to some deeper discussion on the topic. Instead, I got a lot of sarcasm and derision in response. Oh well...

So I just go about my business, trying to politely interject some checks and balances when things seem just a little too biased. And I expect I will remain somewhat less popular than the others. Such is my lot in life...

 

[arnisador]

I have experienced several of the kenpos and kempos, including Parker, Tracy and Shorinji Kempo. Some Pekiti-Tirsia, some Balintawak, some Arnis, and several other Fillipino arts I can not recall the name of. Several different kara-te's, 2 different flavors if you will of the ninja arts, hung gar, preyingmantis, wing chun, jkd, and a half dozen sword arts both eastern and western. I have done several styles of grappling, though again the names escape my recall at the moment. It is, what it is, and that is what works for me as I research and explore.

The research and exploration can't be very deep if you can't even remember the names of the styles, can it?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, lets be fair here Jeff. Do you remember the specific lineage/description of every technique you've ever seen without referring to your notes? I sure can't. Heck, one of my past instructors had that same problem, even told me 3 different names for what he was showing me. Personally, I'm more of the "show me how it goes, don't worry about the jargon" types.

 

[arnisador]

Personally, I'm more of the "show me how it goes, don't worry about the jargon" types.

But wouldn't you know the name of the art you're researching (his term, not mine)? This isn't about what technique(s) came from which art(s)--just what styles of grappling the person had "done" while researching and exploring. Yes, I could tell you the name of every style I have "done" over the past nearly 30 years--not every seminar, not every cross-training experience, but every style I studied, yes:

American Self-Defense (a Kenpo variant)
Isshin-ryu Karate
Judo
Aikido
Goju-ryu Karate (Okinawan Shobukan org.)
Iaido (ZNKR)
Modern Arnis
Arnis-Kali Sipa-Sikaran (since renamed to Arnis Sikaran)
Tae Kwon Do
Uechi-Ryi Karate-Do
Mo Duk Pai Kung Fu
Tai Chi (national style)
Jeet Kune Do (PFS)
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Doce Pares (Eskrido)
Wing Chun Kung Fu

and mixed in there is a smattering of less-formal and less-extensive study of Shorin-ryu Karate, Shotokan Karate, Jujutsu, Kombatan, and Balintawak.

Yes, I think it's reasonable to expect a person to know the name of the art, and to wonder how in-depth the research was if he doesn't.

 

[The Master]

The research and exploration can't be very deep if you can't even remember the names of the styles, can it?

Yes, I think it's reasonable to expect a person to know the name of the art, and to wonder how in-depth the research was if he doesn't.

We digress here, my good Doctor. We turn from the idea of manners or rather the lack of them in kenpo to my training history. Perhaps next we can discuss those revolting jellybabies as we continue this journey off topic into the irrelevant?

If you can recall, with perfect clarity every technique that you have ever been shown, and with equal clarity of recall, its noted source, without referring to any written or otherwise recorded notation, then you sir, are in fact a better man than I, and should perhaps be elevated to the same level of esteem as the late Mr. Bruce Lee.

I would hazard a guess that you, just as I are not that great.

Many of the techniques I practise were learnt at seminars, or casual meet ups from my younger days. As is the whim of youth, I trusted in memory, grown unreliable with age, to recall the whowhatwherewhen that you seek.

As for my grappling background, it has included Somba, Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Greko-Roman, Judo and some others that I've long since forgotten the names of. Add to that the ground techniques of several other arts, with all their similarities of movement to the above.

I care less where something came from, and more for the answers to the questions of "Can I do that?", "Can I do that when it counts" and "Can I do that in an effective manner when it counts?". I approach training not in the "belt collector" mentality, or the "Ooh what a big number you have" manner but a simpler "problem-solution" manner. Knowing how to count to ten in a foreign language will not save your **** in a conflict, nor will that fancy colour paper in the frame on your wall. Knowing all the technical terms means nothing if one cannot implement the solution to the problematic situation currently threatening their continued healthy existence.

So, please excuse me if I cannot name names, regurgitate meaningless historical trivia, or present proper papers and an fancy embroidered belt with ten or more stripes on it.

There are those who will spend decades seeking to master a single art, who will achieve "proper credentials", earn the high dan, and I begrudge them none of it. That path, is a difficult one, one that few truly earn, and too many buy. Those that truly earn it, truly have my deep and honest respect. But their path is not my path. I seek not to teach others, but to understand myself.

As I stated in my previous, oft misunderstood missive, "Your Opinion, She Stinks", we all have our individual expressions of the perfection of humanity. My own, I am Master of. Of yours, I leave its mastery to you.

So, have I now answered the questions, and may we now return to the subject I originally breached here, or shall I dig through my notes to try and present the complete itinerary of every event, seminar and instructor I have ever encountered in my long career, so that someone here can then independently harass them to see if they recall a dark haired individual who asked many questions, and if they cannot that you may then cast me to the Great Debate for interrogation and debunkery? It is bad enough that there are fools at KenpoTalk who will not give credence to someone unless they are in the correct lineage, with the correct rank, with the correct number of stripes on their belt, and correct signatures upon their paper.
I expected better here.
Was I incorrect?

 

[LawDog]

When entering a world where there exists real fighters and tough guys expect their responses will be the same.
Direct and to the point they are, bullies they are not.
:asian:

 

[Shotochem]

So, have I now answered the questions, and may we now return to the subject I originally breached here, or shall I dig through my notes to try and present the complete itinerary of every event, seminar and instructor I have ever encountered in my long career, so that someone here can then independently harass them to see if they recall a dark haired individual who asked many questions, and if they cannot that you may then cast me to the Great Debate for interrogation and debunkery? It is bad enough that there are fools at KenpoTalk who will not give credence to someone unless they are in the correct lineage, with the correct rank, with the correct number of stripes on their belt, and correct signatures upon their paper.
I expected better here.
Was I incorrect?

John, are we not in agreement that this is not only limited to Kem(n)po but all MA?

I have moved on. I am not defending or condemning my current art of Kempo. I enjoy who I am training with and who I am learning from. Make no mistake, if I were to encounter anything like my prior experience I would leave immediately.

You seem like a highly intelligent individual. Why do you really care what a bunch of guys on an internet forum think?

We have some good people here who enjoy a good debate. I tend to read more than post. If we all agree on everything this would be one boring website.

Lets all keep on posting, there is so much to learn, good, bad, ugly, no matter, it's all in good fun.

-Marc-