"Mandatory" Events!!!

[terryl965]

You know god gave us a mind to evaluate everything our life has to offer, what one may see as a problem other see's as a value. With that being said if you do not like what the cook is cooking than leave the kitchen, it really is that simple. Just for the record I personally cannot seeing demandind any of my students to do a tournament, I will suggest and tell them why I believe it is good for them but bottom line is they need to make that decission.

 

[puunui]

I believe in judo you must compete to advance to dan rank. Apparently, there is precedent for the practice.

I was looking at an old Judo Handbook from I think the AAU program which showed the promotion requirements. Those who competed at tournaments and won were promoted much faster than those that did not compete, I want to say five or ten times faster.

 

[Nomad]

The fact that it is compulsory.
What you think of as 'fun' may be something I really don't like.

That was why I put quotes around "compulsory fun". It's very much an oxymoron like "political solutions" or "military intelligence", and tends to go hand-in-hand with "being volunteered" for something.

The very act of making something that you would normally find fun compulsory somehow makes it automatically less fun...

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, I could see being upset as well. However, things change and if you disagree with those changes then leave. If enough students quit due to this change then the school owners may very well get the hint that they need to re-evaluate that part of their requirement.

True, but I think there's some room in there for dissent rather than "Love it or leave it". A wise school owner will listen to his senior students and give then leeway as needed or deserved. I wouldn't tell someone who has been training with me for years that they need to start going to tournaments or else no more promotions.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

The moment you start enforcing events, students will start to leave.

As a Dojang owner, you can make a mandatory event once a year, but not every seminar and tournament because it will only upset people.

Students have a life, they also have to go to school/work and have to pay many other things.

 

[Phenix_Rider]

Ugh, now I "have to" go to a SWAT seminar *rolleyes* for all the higher gup/kyu ranks.

Really, if I had been asked to go it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm in there at least two hours on saturdays anyway, training and assisting. A seminar to standardize teaching practice and polish leadership skills is a good thing. But my issue is, it's up on the white board "MANDATORY" and $25. That bothers me. I'm trying to cut back expenses so I can leave my apartment and buy a house. Which means I'm skipping all the optional (paid) classes while still attempting to advance my traning, as well as cutting back in other areas of my life. (Not eating lunch, eating out less, not buying anything I don't need, eating cheap on travel so I can keep per diem, keeping the heat way down, etc, etc)

I've already been reconsidering my fit in this school. Seems to me like business practice is over riding teaching practice, and that doesn't sit well with me. I especially don't like to see that an event I have to pay for is mandatory. Then there's the dynamic between the owner and his son... I won't go into that, other than to mention the son just skipped his second dan test. As in, didn't bother going in front of the head of the association. Just didn't test at all, when he had been scheduled to test for months.

I'm almost looking forward to a new school, besides dreading searching a good one out.

 

[Phenix_Rider]

So do you believe any type of competition is useless? Basketball, baseball, soccer, etc. Do you see all competition as just an outlet for those to boost their ego?

There are a lot more lessons to be learn in competition than just winning a piece of hard plastic. It is too bad you can't see that.

Not useless at all. BUT those sports are entirely based around competition. If you want to set up a martial arts school/club like a sports team/club so be it. If you say UP FRONT "You will be expected at every game/tournament" that's different than what I'm hearing here. Neither have I seen a sports club where you pay dues, and on top of that, pay for every segment of every event you must compete in. If you bill a school as "traditional" or "self defense" then making tournament competition a requirement is wrong. Most modern tournament rules have absolutely nothing to do with self defense. The way I see it, you can make something compulsory or exact a fee for it, not both.

If you want to make it a requirement for rank, it should be included in the dues. One quarter of a month's dues for ten students (here I'm talking about my SWAT seminar) isn't going to hurt a business.

 

[jks9199]

Ugh, now I "have to" go to a SWAT seminar *rolleyes* for all the higher gup/kyu ranks.

Really, if I had been asked to go it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm in there at least two hours on saturdays anyway, training and assisting. A seminar to standardize teaching practice and polish leadership skills is a good thing. But my issue is, it's up on the white board "MANDATORY" and $25. That bothers me. I'm trying to cut back expenses so I can leave my apartment and buy a house. Which means I'm skipping all the optional (paid) classes while still attempting to advance my traning, as well as cutting back in other areas of my life. (Not eating lunch, eating out less, not buying anything I don't need, eating cheap on travel so I can keep per diem, keeping the heat way down, etc, etc)

I've already been reconsidering my fit in this school. Seems to me like business practice is over riding teaching practice, and that doesn't sit well with me. I especially don't like to see that an event I have to pay for is mandatory. Then there's the dynamic between the owner and his son... I won't go into that, other than to mention the son just skipped his second dan test. As in, didn't bother going in front of the head of the association. Just didn't test at all, when he had been scheduled to test for months.

I'm almost looking forward to a new school, besides dreading searching a good one out.

Sounds like you may have a fit problem with that school. I don't like that they're mandating students pay for things unexpectedly.

On a side note -- don't skip lunch. Pack it. You'll save a boatload of money unless you really cram a lot in when you pack it, and you'll probably eat healthier.

 

[miguksaram]

Not useless at all. BUT those sports are entirely based around competition. If you want to set up a martial arts school/club like a sports team/club so be it. If you say UP FRONT "You will be expected at every game/tournament" that's different than what I'm hearing here.

That doesn't really pertain to my comment I made. The poster said that competition in martial arts is about boosting ego. With that logic you can say competition in anything is about boosting egos regardless of how it original structure is set up.

Neither have I seen a sports club where you pay dues, and on top of that, pay for every segment of every event you must compete in.

I believe gymnastics, ice skating, speed skating, fencing and there are others out there that you have to pay for your gym fees, association fees, etc. and still pay for your own competition fees.

If you bill a school as "traditional" or "self defense" then making tournament competition a requirement is wrong. Most modern tournament rules have absolutely nothing to do with self defense. The way I see it, you can make something compulsory or exact a fee for it, not both.

Why is it wrong. Judo, Taekwondo, Kyokushin are just a few that are traditional martial arts and implement sports aspect. Plus are you saying a school that has scenario/scripted self defense moves are more geared for streets than those those who also do tournaments?

If you want to make it a requirement for rank, it should be included in the dues. One quarter of a month's dues for ten students (here I'm talking about my SWAT seminar) isn't going to hurt a business.

Then perhaps they should jack up your dues to cover the cost of the SWAT seminar.

 

[miguksaram]

Ugh, now I "have to" go to a SWAT seminar *rolleyes* for all the higher gup/kyu ranks.

Really, if I had been asked to go it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm in there at least two hours on saturdays anyway, training and assisting. A seminar to standardize teaching practice and polish leadership skills is a good thing. But my issue is, it's up on the white board "MANDATORY" and $25. That bothers me. I'm trying to cut back expenses so I can leave my apartment and buy a house. Which means I'm skipping all the optional (paid) classes while still attempting to advance my traning, as well as cutting back in other areas of my life. (Not eating lunch, eating out less, not buying anything I don't need, eating cheap on travel so I can keep per diem, keeping the heat way down, etc, etc)

I've already been reconsidering my fit in this school. Seems to me like business practice is over riding teaching practice, and that doesn't sit well with me. I especially don't like to see that an event I have to pay for is mandatory. Then there's the dynamic between the owner and his son... I won't go into that, other than to mention the son just skipped his second dan test. As in, didn't bother going in front of the head of the association. Just didn't test at all, when he had been scheduled to test for months.

I'm almost looking forward to a new school, besides dreading searching a good one out.

I think you should cut your loses and move on to a different school. At this point you know what they are about and it doesn't look like they will be changing anytime soon.

 

[sfs982000]

I think you should cut your loses and move on to a different school. At this point you know what they are about and it doesn't look like they will be changing anytime soon.

I would have to agree, at this point it's pretty obvious what the school is about and if you're not happy with the instruction or business practices they conduct you'll be a lot happier finding another school to attend.

 

[Bruno@MT]

That was why I put quotes around "compulsory fun". It's very much an oxymoron like "political solutions" or "military intelligence", and tends to go hand-in-hand with "being volunteered" for something.

The very act of making something that you would normally find fun compulsory somehow makes it automatically less fun...

My bad. Thanks for the explanation

 

[Gabriel Binette]

So,

My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!

I've never understood this policy! When the organization head tells school owners/instructors to MAKE their students compete, or they won't be considered for testing, to ME...seems wrong.

Now, I realize that it is a business....But come on. Encouraging students to compete, or attend camps is one thing, but FORCING them?! This just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, where organizations are concerned.

i heard thats an ATA thing. are you ATA?

 

[ganglian]

So,

My question is....have any of you ever had the displeasure of being told that, you HAVE to attend events (eg., tournaments, camps, seminars, etc.), or risk being passed over for promotion?!

I've never understood this policy! When the organization head tells school owners/instructors to MAKE their students compete, or they won't be considered for testing, to ME...seems wrong.

Now, I realize that it is a business....But come on. Encouraging students to compete, or attend camps is one thing, but FORCING them?! This just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, where organizations are concerned.

A business is also a service, you should start with questioning the teahcer's motives at that point imo

 

[11 Bravo Infantry]

i heard thats an ATA thing. are you ATA?

I've never heard of ata.....no, I am not.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

In my original Judo school, promotion included sparring with (randori) and beating several students of the rank being tested for. Obviously, competing at tournaments made that more familiar. In addition, one was expected to support the dojo by attending special events, including tournaments, when possible. However, there was no requirement and no rules about it.

In JKA shotokan, dan tests are traditionally only offered at camps and/or special events, like a national/North American tournament, or perhaps a seminar from a visiting senior dan from Japan. If you were going to take a dan test, you were expected to attend (and pay for) the event. An old saying...'Your black belt test starts the first day of camp." If you couldn't be bothered to attend and participate with energy, you probably were not going to pass your test. An unwritten rule, but enforced fairly strictly. It was partially about the money, but also about the dedication and commitment being displayed. Along the lines of "Too good to attend camp and learn from the experts? You probably don't need a new black belt rank." There was no corresponding unwritten rule about kyu ranks, although it never hurt to have the senior dan in your region/association see you at camps and tournaments.

In my current organization (WTSDA), our region tried to encourage students to attend at least two (out of three or four) regional events per year (tournaments, camps, clinics, etc). It used to be a requirement for dan-level tests, but we don't enforce it. Times are tough.

A school that requires a financial commitment for supplemental events - especially that benefit the school - should make those requirements clear from the beginning. I must admit I don't like the idea, but understand that most (?) martial arts schools are a business, first and foremost. If the instructor can't afford to keep the school open, then all the great instruction in the world won't help.

 

[puunui]

In JKA shotokan, dan tests are traditionally only offered at camps and/or special events, like a national/North American tournament, or perhaps a seminar from a visiting senior dan from Japan. If you were going to take a dan test, you were expected to attend (and pay for) the event. An old saying...'Your black belt test starts the first day of camp." If you couldn't be bothered to attend and participate with energy, you probably were not going to pass your test. An unwritten rule, but enforced fairly strictly. It was partially about the money, but also about the dedication and commitment being displayed. Along the lines of "Too good to attend camp and learn from the experts? You probably don't need a new black belt rank." There was no corresponding unwritten rule about kyu ranks, although it never hurt to have the senior dan in your region/association see you at camps and tournaments.

In my current organization (WTSDA), our region tried to encourage students to attend at least two (out of three or four) regional events per year (tournaments, camps, clinics, etc). It used to be a requirement for dan-level tests, but we don't enforce it. Times are tough.

In your opinion, how does JKA Shotokan compare to WTSDA Tang Soo Do? Any similarities? Any differences?

 

[DMcHenry]

I'm not with WTSDA, but did attend one of their regional Dan testings and events this weekend. From what I could tell, they do track (points) participation in this (Texas) region. They had a Dan testing, tournament, and seminar besides a dinner celebration for the regional director's 40 years in MA. It was all very nice and well done, seemed to be well worth while for the participants (and I had fun too).

Mac

 

[OldKarateGuy]

@puunui -

JKA vs WTSDA. First, it's just my opinion. Don't want to offend anyone. Someone else might see this completely differently.

The forms are nearly identical. WTSDA uses the older, traditional names (which were changed in the JKA for the most part by Funakoshi). Korean art has more high kicks (no surprise) and more jumps, while JKA has more low moves and sliding moves with the student close to the ground. So, for instance, in a 180 degree turn, WTSDA might have a slower turn with high, outside-to-inside kick, while shotokan might have quick low spin and a stomp kick.

WTSDA blocks are all hip rotation with the technique, that is, no reverse rotation. So, as an example, a high block starts from the opposite hip with the torso sideways, turns into the block and finishes with the body square. JKA, you drive the blocking shoulder forward while pulling the opposite shoulder back, finishing sideways. (assuming both are front hand high blocks). Generally, WTSDA hand technques tend to be more circular.

JKA shotokan emphasizes (in forms) always maintaining the same height (except when the kata calls for a change), hands and feet finish at the same time, etc. TSD seems not to be concerned with either of these.

There's lots of this detail difference, but generally, a student from one would instantly recognize the other's forms.

As for promotional tests, I think JKA emphasizes very specific and precise technique, forms with no error, not much room for deviation from association standards. WTSDA is a much more physical test, with room for (minor) errors as long as the energy and spirit is there.

Point sparring rules: no contest here. WTSDA is liability aware, full gear, no sweeps, no grabs, no punches to head or back, etc. JKA - put on your gloves and don't attack joints or groin.

Despite the similarities, I really think a comparison is apples and oranges. Completely different mentality and philosophy at work.

There was a link to a '60's vintage black and white video of Hwang Kee's school in Seoul a while back. Look at that video and then look at a video of, say, Osaka Sensei doing a form. I think both are very representative of the respective styles.

And last, I think WTSDA is more susceptible to regional variations in forms and technique, while JKA style is very well documented with very little room to wander off the farm, so to speak.