Man sues instructor

[FearlessFreep]

From http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hWqoBBeJ8MEkD1N1H-1ecawv3W5A

Campbell River man hurt sparring with martial arts teacher wins damages

VANCOUVER - A man who sued his martial arts teacher after his knee was
injured while the teacher was demonstrating a move has been awarded damages
of more than $155,000 in B.C. Supreme Court.

Court was told that Robert Parker of Campbell River suffered a ligament tear
and damage to the cartilage of his right knee as a result of pressure
applied by Jodey Ingalls on Jan. 23, 2003.

Parker said he heard his knee pop, rip and tear, suffered excruciating pain
and blacked out for 20 to 30 seconds.

Parker eventually had surgery on the knee, in May 2004, but his knee is
still stiff in the morning and he limps for the first couple of steps he
take.

Court was told he can't ski or do martial arts, play baseball or ride his
bike off-road, has gained 30 pounds since the injury and continues to take
pain and anti-inflammatory medication.

He's also unable to work on his house or trade work with his friends and his
ability to help with chores around the house is reduced.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I hate to see instructors sued but I do not know all of the circumstances on what happened so I can not say much.
If the instructor was careless or not competent to teach that is one thing. If it was an accident then that is another.

 

[Kacey]

Hmm... that's a disturbing precedent - as said, it's hard to say without more detail, and I agree, if it was incompetence, that's one thing, but if it was an accident, that's something else.

 

[Andrew Green]

I hate to see instructors sued but I do not know all of the circumstances on what happened so I can not say much.
If the instructor was careless or not competent to teach that is one thing. If it was an accident then that is another.

He's got a pretty good resume:

http://www.pureselfdefence.com/instructors.html

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=8096

 

[grydth]

There's not enough here to figure out what the Canadian Court based liability, and the pretty sizable damage award, upon.

This will not have any precedential effects in the USA per se, but you can bet the personal injury bar will be looking it over for any novel contentions.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I'm really surprised we don't see this more often.

They gymnastics school that we teach out of gets sued on occasion by parents who are well aware of the dangers of gymnastics and have signed liability waivers.

When it comes down to it, the waivers don't seem to hold much water.

Jeff

 

[theletch1]

I'm really surprised we don't see this more often.

They gymnastics school that we teach out of gets sued on occasion by parents who are well aware of the dangers of gymnastics and have signed liability waivers.

When it comes down to it, the waivers don't seem to hold much water.

Jeff

There's no such thing as an iron clad waiver, I guess. I'm surprised too that there isn't more of this in the U.S. of A. We are, after all, a sue happy nation. The trouble is that there are folks that just reek of a lawsuit waiting to happen and if you turn them away from your school you can almost bet on a lawsuit there as well.

 

[Kacey]

I'm really surprised we don't see this more often.

They gymnastics school that we teach out of gets sued on occasion by parents who are well aware of the dangers of gymnastics and have signed liability waivers.

When it comes down to it, the waivers don't seem to hold much water.

Jeff

Waivers, although generally required by insurance companies, are really not worth the paper they're printed on. The lawsuit above is sad, but it doesn't really surprise me.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I wonder what technique he used to cause it.
I also wonder if the guy was tapping.
In the situations where I have been Uke and have had stress placed on an area I could feel when the time was to tap. However if a technique goes wrong or the person who is applying the technique does not know the correct amount of pressure to put on things like this can happen.
I feel some what sorry for both parties most teachers are not aimed to break their students knees on purpose and most students would know proper ukemi or proper tapping and it should be the teacher's job to make sure the person he demostrates on knows this and the risk. I think it gives us a moment to think what would we as students have done or as teachers have done to prevent it or if it was not prevented what action would be correct.

 

[terryl965]

Well it puts a new spin on everything does'nt it. As an Instructor myself I am puzzle why this individual would be sueing in the first place. This will trickle down to all sports.

 

[Kreth]

He's got a pretty good resume:

http://www.pureselfdefence.com/instructors.html

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=8096

Given the instructor's credentials, I wonder if the student tried to muscle his way out of some type of submission.

 

[MBuzzy]

I'm sure that the instructor did not intend to really injury the guy, but unfortunately, he did and in the eyes of the law, intention means very little.

And though the man did sign a waiver, I'm sure this was viewed as a preventable incident. As an instructor, he should have the control to ensure that things like this don't happen. Obviously accidents will happen and something like a sparring injury (a person steps into a technique, slips on the groun, etc) would probably be a lot easier to justify than demonstrating something to the point of injury.

It stinks and I definately feel for the instructor.....but like SFC Jeff said, I'm REALLY surprised that we don't see more of these. You take a huge risk in terms of liability when you own a school, which I'm sure that he knew. In today's world, you just have to be extra careful. Sad but true.

 

[MBuzzy]

Given the instructor's credentials, I wonder if the student tried to muscle his way out of some type of submission.

Good point also....It definately COULD be the student's fault, although if a student is trying to muscle out of something, after this case, it may be better to let them go now instead of demonstrating through pain compliance (which is how I usually deal with it).

 

[arnisador]

I hate to see instructors sued but I do not know all of the circumstances on what happened so I can not say much.
If the instructor was careless or not competent to teach that is one thing. If it was an accident then that is another.

We don't know what facts the court had at hand, of course. People are able to sue all the time for reasonable and inherent risks--that's why some groups lobby to have their activity (e.g. skiing or skydiving) declared "inherently risky" under state law and hence hard to sue over.

It's interesting to compare people's reactions here with those in this thread. Of course a student doing it vs. an instructor doing it means the situations aren't fully comparable. I'd be very curious to know whether the plaintiff here asserted that it was a malicious, negligent, or merely accidental injury (perhaps the law there is such that the owner is financially responsible for such accidents).

I'm sure that the instructor did not intend to really injury the guy, but unfortunately, he did and in the eyes of the law, intention means very little.

Well, not in criminal cases, but in torts it means much less, as a rule.

 

[grydth]

I'm sure that the instructor did not intend to really injury the guy, but unfortunately, he did and in the eyes of the law, intention means very little.

And though the man did sign a waiver, I'm sure this was viewed as a preventable incident. As an instructor, he should have the control to ensure that things like this don't happen. Obviously accidents will happen and something like a sparring injury (a person steps into a technique, slips on the groun, etc) would probably be a lot easier to justify than demonstrating something to the point of injury.

It stinks and I definately feel for the instructor.....but like SFC Jeff said, I'm REALLY surprised that we don't see more of these. You take a huge risk in terms of liability when you own a school, which I'm sure that he knew. In today's world, you just have to be extra careful. Sad but true.

Have to respectfully disagree with a number of you guys on this - in the eyes of the law, intention often means everything! This effect may range from whether you can even be sued to the existence of enormous punitive damages.

Now, laws vary from state to state, not to mention between countries (Remember, this thread concerns a Canadian case - it may portend nothing new for those of us in the USA).

We don't know how this incident happened. But if it was an intentional injury from the instructor, no waiver in the world will save you. Generally, courts find one can't waive liability for intentional torts. Similarly, only terrible conduct from the defendant will usually bring in punitive damages - and those can kill a dojo.

That school which is the subject of a current thread, the one where the staff let a cowardly woman hater seriously injure female students....were it in the USA, the owner might just as well wear a sandwich board with SUE ME! on both sides.... and let's be frank: He deserves it. So does the '200 kicks to kids dojo', also seen in a recent thread.

You do take a liability risk in most anything you do. But control what you do, and what goes on in your dojo, and you reduce that risk hugely. Have the advice of a good attorney and have a good insurance policy from a reputable insurance carrier and you are further protected.

I can tell you why most of the instructors here don't see more suits.... by and large, you are a legitimate, honest and caring collection of people. Believe it or not, even some plaintiffs with viable lawsuits do not sue. Some are taken in by the waivers, but others won't sue simply because they like and respect you. I have seen this. Conversely, treat people badly and slickly, and they will want to sue you even if you haven't broken the law. One of your best defenses is your own conduct, day in and day out.

 

[MBuzzy]

Have to respectfully disagree with a number of you guys on this - in the eyes of the law, intention often means everything! This effect may range from whether you can even be sued to the existence of enormous punitive damages.

Now, laws vary from state to state, not to mention between countries (Remember, this thread concerns a Canadian case - it may portend nothing new for those of us in the USA).

It is true that intention CAN mean a lot in a court proceding, but there's one very big problem with the idea of intention.....Its VERY hard to prove. If it wasn't, the best defense in the world....for every case would be "I didn't mean to."

In some cases, its easy to prove one way or another. If I steal something from a store, its pretty obvious that I meant to. If I'm speeding, you may not have known the speed you were doing at the time, you obviously didn't want to get caught, but try telling the officer that you didn't mean to go that fast.....then try to prove it!

If I shot and killed someone, but didn't mean to, the best that I can possibly hope for is reduction from murder to manslaughter. And for that, I would have to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that I did in fact accidentally shoot the person. Any less than manslaughter and I would have to produce evidence of a weapon malfunction or that it was somehow the person who was shot's fault and not mine (like he ran across a firing range).

Also, in this case, it is fairly easy to prove that he didn't mean to....if he MEANT to hurt the student, there would be no students left because he probably would have hurt more. But as far as the law is concerned, in most cases, the fact that he didn't do it intentionally isn't going to hold up much - especially given his skill level.

In this case, as a member of a jury, I would expect a martial arts instructor to have complete control of any technique that he executed - to such a level that he can prevent unintentionally hurting someone. It goes without saying that he has the skill required to hurt the people in his class. Basically, it is just going to be difficult for him to argue his way out of it.

 

[grydth]

Yes, the ability to prove something, any element of a case, can be frustrating. I can still recall the frustrations from various situations where we knew there was criminal/fraudulent activity afoot but could not prove it.

Intent can be proven in a number of ways. Sometimes a verbal declaration comes with a violent act; other times there are comments to cronies beforehand or threats made. Sometimes the act itself proves intent, for example a fatal technique which is expressly forbidden finding its way into a sparring match. Such deadly techniques leave little doubt as to what the offender intended. There can be circumstantial evidence, say the sensei learned the student was possibly having an affair with his wife just prior to the, um, 'accident' on the mat.

Now, in the homicide situations you cite, intent is everything. Criminally negligent homicide may be little or even no jail time... while premeditated homicide can bring a sentence of 25 years to life in this state.

In this thread, we are handicapped in not knowing very much of what happened. Also, I have no idea what theory the plaintiff won on and how the damages were assessed.

 

[kidswarrior]

I can tell you why most of the instructors here don't see more suits.... by and large, you are a legitimate, honest and caring collection of people. Believe it or not, even some plaintiffs with viable lawsuits do not sue. Some are taken in by the waivers, but others won't sue simply because they like and respect you. I have seen this. Conversely, treat people badly and slickly, and they will want to sue you even if you haven't broken the law. One of your best defenses is your own conduct, day in and day out.

Gotta agree here. No guarantees it won't change tomorrow, but I think the way we treat our students goes a looong way.

 

[Guardian]

I don't have a school and when I do teach anymore, it's pretty simple and basic, so I can't really see this as those of you that own schools or go to them would see it.

I must say this guy sounds like a wuss in my book, he knew when he got into it that something could happen, heck that injury he had he could have gotten it doing alot of things, unfortunately it happen to be at a dojo and that left him an avenue of suing. Totally pathetic in my book, he could have gotten the school/instructor to pay for his medical bills at the most if he had any type of integrity in him, but of course, the more money the better off you are no matter who's expense it's at.

He limps for the first few steps, please give me a break, I creak the first 5 minutes of moving LOL. What's he complaining about.

 

[theletch1]

I don't have a school and when I do teach anymore, it's pretty simple and basic, so I can't really see this as those of you that own schools or go to them would see it.

I must say this guy sounds like a wuss in my book, he knew when he got into it that something could happen, heck that injury he had he could have gotten it doing alot of things, unfortunately it happen to be at a dojo and that left him an avenue of suing. Totally pathetic in my book, he could have gotten the school/instructor to pay for his medical bills at the most if he had any type of integrity in him, but of course, the more money the better off you are no matter who's expense it's at.

He limps for the first few steps, please give me a break, I creak the first 5 minutes of moving LOL. What's he complaining about.

:lfao:
That's a club that most of us can claim to be members of after very long in the martial arts.