Looking for a kata

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,628
Reaction score
448
Location
Winnipeg MB
Ok, I guess I still don't understand why your test would includ bringing in elements from a different system that you do not actually study...

Perhaps it's simply to get students to take some time looking outside of their own little martial arts bubble to see what other styles do and how it differs. Can you really say you understand the value in your specific style of martial arts if you don't take some time to look at what others do differently?

I've read a ton of books and watched plenty of video on styles I've never done, and will never do. But I would also say that doing so broadened my perspective on what it is that I do.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,773
Reaction score
3,256
Location
San Francisco
Perhaps it's simply to get students to take some time looking outside of their own little martial arts bubble to see what other styles do and how it differs. Can you really say you understand the value in your specific style of martial arts if you don't take some time to look at what others do differently?

I've read a ton of books and watched plenty of video on styles I've never done, and will never do. But I would also say that doing so broadened my perspective on what it is that I do.
I would never discourage someone from trying to learn something new, including something about another system. But it seems to me that this is not the way to go about it. Tasking a student with learning a kata from a different system, from an outside source, and then bringing that in as part of his test is the wrong venue and the wrong approach. I know you are involved in MMA, I don't recall if you have a background in any method that includes kata. If not, I will say that learning kata is far more that memorizing some moves. Bringing in a kata from a different system, divorced from that systems foundations and methodologies, does not teach him anything, even tho a lot of people want to believe that it does. Without proper context, it doesn't give you anything.

The fact that his teacher told him to do this is concerning to me, it seems like a competent teacher ought to know better, and should understand that this task is inappropriate for this venue and in this way.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,785
Reaction score
5,666
Perhaps it's simply to get students to take some time looking outside of their own little martial arts bubble to see what other styles do and how it differs. Can you really say you understand the value in your specific style of martial arts if you don't take some time to look at what others do differently?

I've read a ton of books and watched plenty of video on styles I've never done, and will never do. But I would also say that doing so broadened my perspective on what it is that I do.


I have mentioned martial arts tourism before. And how much I like the concept.

Our MMA guys do this sort of extra curricular exploration all the time.

But our local karate instructor did the same. Spent a week doing different martial arts there.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,785
Reaction score
5,666
I would never discourage someone from trying to learn something new, including something about another system. But it seems to me that this is not the way to go about it. Tasking a student with learning a kata from a different system, from an outside source, and then bringing that in as part of his test is the wrong venue and the wrong approach. I know you are involved in MMA, I don't recall if you have a background in any method that includes kata. If not, I will say that learning kata is far more that memorizing some moves. Bringing in a kata from a different system, divorced from that systems foundations and methodologies, does not teach him anything, even tho a lot of people want to believe that it does. Without proper context, it doesn't give you anything.

The fact that his teacher told him to do this is concerning to me, it seems like a competent teacher ought to know better, and should understand that this task is inappropriate for this venue and in this way.

And this is what is wrong with martial arts. The push to prop your own status by driving everybody else to be mediocre.

Dont push a boundry. Dont learn a new concept. Dont get an origional idea. Only learn the right way from me.

It is tragic.

Ok. If the guy learns a kata and does not fully understand it due to the context.

So what?
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,628
Reaction score
448
Location
Winnipeg MB
Without proper context, it doesn't give you anything.

It gives you something, maybe not a complete picture, but that's not the goal. His objective is not to learn an entire system, just to take a piece of it and play with it for a while.

And you're right, I have a different perspective. But I did start off in traditional karate 30 years ago, I'm familiar with kata. I think the real difference is whether you try to look at styles as self-contained things that should not be mixed, or as different views on the same core thing. But a common analogy is to look at kata as text books in karate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with picking up a different text book on a related subject and reading a chapter out of the middle that looks interesting when studying any subject. I suspect all universities are going to encourage students to look at multiple perspectives, take intro courses in a couple subjects and gain a little width as well as depth in their understanding.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,773
Reaction score
3,256
Location
San Francisco
It gives you something, maybe not a complete picture, but that's not the goal. His objective is not to learn an entire system, just to take a piece of it and play with it for a while.

And you're right, I have a different perspective. But I did start off in traditional karate 30 years ago, I'm familiar with kata. I think the real difference is whether you try to look at styles as self-contained things that should not be mixed, or as different views on the same core thing. But a common analogy is to look at kata as text books in karate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with picking up a different text book on a related subject and reading a chapter out of the middle that looks interesting when studying any subject. I suspect all universities are going to encourage students to look at multiple perspectives, take intro courses in a couple subjects and gain a little width as well as depth in their understanding.
I understand your point, and we fundamentally disagree in this case.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,748
Reaction score
8,178
Location
Hendersonville, NC
A professor once told me "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people."
I've heard some stupid questions, and pretty much never by someone who says, "I have a stupid question." When I'm doing corporate training and someone asks if they can ask a "stupid question", I usually reply, "Okay. I'll see if I have any stupid answers."
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,748
Reaction score
8,178
Location
Hendersonville, NC
It gives you something, maybe not a complete picture, but that's not the goal. His objective is not to learn an entire system, just to take a piece of it and play with it for a while.

And you're right, I have a different perspective. But I did start off in traditional karate 30 years ago, I'm familiar with kata. I think the real difference is whether you try to look at styles as self-contained things that should not be mixed, or as different views on the same core thing. But a common analogy is to look at kata as text books in karate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with picking up a different text book on a related subject and reading a chapter out of the middle that looks interesting when studying any subject. I suspect all universities are going to encourage students to look at multiple perspectives, take intro courses in a couple subjects and gain a little width as well as depth in their understanding.
I agree that he probably won't learn much, but will probably not do any harm, either. If the point of the task is just to encourage students to look around, toy with other material, and be open to new ideas, I don't see any problem with this approach to it.
 

O'Malley

Purple Belt
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
307
Reaction score
166
I am currently testing for my level 2 Jr. black belt, for people under 18 who have earned a black belt, and one of my requirements is a special presentation. I am studying shorinji ryu under the zen bei butoku kai international organization and I picked out Kajukenbo to study for a while. I was wondering what kata would be best to perform in front of my group. It needs to be short, about 2-3 minutes since I have 5 minutes to present and 2 while be talking about the history. I'm looking for the a kata that shows some of the basics as well as a few advanced moves. Palama set 14 looked pretty good. I just want to make sure I find the best kata to perform that would show lots of Kajukenbo movements.

That's nice but people don't get taught Pinan 14 until they reach a certain level because you need to learn other things first in order for it to be useful (looks like an eskrima-based footwork kata but I don't know it).

I used to train in Kajukenbo (Garcia line) and I would recommend that you present one of the first three kata that are usually taught during the first year (yellow belt: 1-2, orange belt: 1-2-3). From what I know, the moves are based on kenpo so you might find some similarities with what you've been doing in your style (the later kata are said to have more Chinese concepts in them).

I like the Pinan 2 in this video:


And the Pinan 3 in this one:


At least it looks similar to how we were doing them.
 
Top