Long 4

[Sigung86]

Thanks for the implied compliment, Bayonet, but I the WOMAN.

My master instructor does exert a great deal of control over our sparring situation. Broken bones can happen at any point in one's training -- some of mine are as a result of having techniques done on me and my not getting out of the way. My fault, not Sifu's.

And, I hope David Lee Roth returns to Van Halen.

You give me hope Tiger! LOL!

I'm 57 and chunking at it ... This year I acquired a new student that I am particularly proud of. He's 70 years old, had quadruple bypass, and a few other surgeries. His Doctor says that whatever I'm doing to him is great and to keep it up.

And I kind of miss David Lee, myself.

 

[Doc]

You give me hope Tiger! LOL!

I'm 57 and chunking at it ... This year I acquired a new student that I am particularly proud of. He's 70 years old, had quadruple bypass, and a few other surgeries. His Doctor says that whatever I'm doing to him is great and to keep it up.

And I kind of miss David Lee, myself.

You young whiners need to quit!

 

[Sigung86]

You young whiners need to quit!

Yes ... Papa San!!!! :asian: :asian: :asian:

:roflmao:

 

[jdinca]

We do a modified version of Tracy Kenpo up to 3rd degree brown, then it's gets more eclectic and unique to our system. I believe we complete the Tracy system for 1st degree BB in the 3rd degree brown belt. We've, split orange and purple into 2 belts each. It's also hard to equate because our names are somewhat different but here goes:

Yellow:Kata 1
Orange: Kata 1a
Orange II: Kata 2
Purple: Kata 2 left side
Purple II: Kata 3
Blue: Kata 4
Green: Kata 5, 6 and 7(staff form)
3rd Brown: Kata 8(staff form), Bit-Ti 1, Bi-Ti 2, Bi-Ti 3, Kata 12 (Kata 1-6 right and left side), Orange Set, Purple Set, Blue Set, Green Set
2nd Brown: Finger Set, Punching Set, Animal Set, Mass Attack (Finger, Punching and Animal set all have standing, stance and movement sections)
1st Brown: Whirling Blades, Black Belt Set, Book Set, Long 6
Black Belt: Don't know but it does include an open hand thesis form and a weapon thesis form

 

[teej]

Form 4 being the blk blt form, I teach it during brown belt as long as the student has it down for their blk blt test. There is no blk blt test without knowing and being about to perform form 4. So the student has to have time to not only learn it, but practice it. Mr. Planas has said all you have to do is watch someone do form 4 and tell whether they are a blk blt or not. [someone may wear a blk blt, doesn't mean they deserve it (disagreement with this would be topic for another thread)} Being able to perform form 4 will tell all.

Teej

 

[Seabrook]

Mr. Planas has said all you have to do is watch someone do form 4 and tell whether they are a blk blt or not. [someone may wear a blk blt, doesn't mean they deserve it (disagreement with this would be topic for another thread)} Being able to perform form 4 will tell all.

Teej

Hmmm....the way someone performs Long Form 4 would tell me whether the individual moves like a black belt in terms of his/her basics. But what if the same person can't fight himself out of a wet paper bag?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Sigung86]

Hmmm....the way someone performs Long Form 4 would tell me whether the individual moves like a black belt in terms of his/her basics. But what if the same person can't fight himself out of a wet paper bag?
Jamie Seabrook

Interesting comment... Far be it from me to disagree with anyone so far, but ... The ability to move like a black belt is way over-rated ... Long philosophical discourse to follow.

Most people, so it seems, appear to have forgotten that the black belt is really the entry level to learning and that is for any art, chess, aikido, various forms of karaté and our own Kenpo.

The way people scramble for belts now a days, is intriguing. I know one fellow that I, personally, am fond of and he has numerous black belts. Does this make him able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag, as it were? Hardly.

The black belt is only an indication of knowledge acquired and perceived skill or technical capability. It has, now at any rate, no real indication of overall proficiency in the arena of combat.

As Martial Artists, we cover ourselves with various cloaks of ethics, honor, integrity, and bravery (well some of us do at any rate), but that, and all that, does not create a warrior.

There are, I surmise, a number of black belts out there, and some of them are relatively highly ranked I'd wager, who have never been in a fight. They have all the tools and knowledge, because they have done the required materials and put in the time and effort to become what they are. Is this an indication that they could fight their way out of a wet paper bag?

NOT … AT … ALL!

In my tiny shelllike mind, I believe that we can all sit around and talk "smack" as they call it today. But it is a different time and place than it was when folks like Doc, Conatser, myself (not including myself as a notable, only as at it a very long time), and others came up through the ranks.

In those golden and halcyon days, it was not improbable to come out of the dojo with smashed, sprained, gouged, and broken things hanging off of our bodies. It was not a matter of someone attacking you, you defending and then having to defend yourself again when s/he sued you for whatever they could get. A fight, win, lose or draw, was simply that, a fight.

We, I think I speak for others here but maybe not all, really aspired to the much coveted Black Belt. Not necessarily for how tough we were, but more for the idea that, at that point, we realized we really could begin to learn the system of Kenpo.

Heck, where I was, there was no rank beyond third Black and in our inestimable opinion, a first black could walk on water, lift buildings and walk under them, and catch arrows in his teeth (too bad no one carries bows and arrows anymore). But I digress.

The provenance of the black belt is, as I said before, nothing more than an indication of time spent. In the old Chinese arts, the didn’t use belts, they used titles, and called it all "Kung fu", a word that boils down in translation, to time spent and skill learned and earned. You could be considered to be "Kung fu" as a floor mopper, mechanic, cook, or whatever.

The black belt skills do not necessarily indicate that, in real life, a person could fight his or her way out of a wet paper bag. That, however, is the perception that we place on it, however mistaken that perception might be.

The only real way to know if someone can fight their way out of a wet paper bag is for them to have been tested in combat, and not found wanting. And, in all honesty, unless one lives in a movieland neighborhood like Speakman did in Perfect Weapon, or has a job like a bouncer, mercenary, bounty hunter, special ops, or the like, one does not have that many opportunities to find out if one can fight oneself out of a wet paper bag. Today, all these combative types of livelyhoods rely more on technology to complete the destruction of an enemy.

Even then, it is problematic.

It depends on the day, the surroundings, the opponent, the time, and on and on. One day, you may be the bravest or most foolish warrior in existence, like Funakoshi, who said, "If the foe be 10,000, but the cause is just, I go". Or ... you may be cloaked in all the sayings of Ed Parker, have all the chivalric attitudes of a Knight Templar, and when it comes down to crunch you might freeze and get your butt kicked. It happens.
So … I put to you that a Black Belt is not an indication of warrior capability.

Hope my ramblings didn’t put you to sleep.

 

[Seabrook]

A black belt should be able to defend oneself, and that is the bottom line. Being able to perform a form choreographed nicely to music doesn't qualify someone as a black belt in my opinion.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Sigung86]

A black belt should be able to defend oneself, and that is the bottom line. Being able to perform a form choreographed nicely to music doesn't qualify someone as a black belt in my opinion.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

That is one perception among many, and rightfully, or wrongly, it ain't necessarily so in all cases.

I'm not trying to argue with you Jamie, not at all ... Just saying that, regardless of perception, there are many realities in this wonderful world of Martial Arts.

 

[teej]

Hmmm....the way someone performs Long Form 4 would tell me whether the individual moves like a black belt in terms of his/her basics. But what if the same person can't fight himself out of a wet paper bag?

A black belt should be able to defend oneself, and that is the bottom line. Being able to perform a form choreographed nicely to music doesn't qualify someone as a black belt in my opinion.

This is very true. However, an individual does not have to be a black belt to be able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag. Many and or most of Mr. Parkers original students were already fighters before starting their kenpo training with him.

I totally agree that a black belt should be able to defend themselves. That is a problem that I see a lot with students focusing on learning so many techniques but not being able to react properly or in time.

Anyway, back to the original

Mr. Planas has said all you have to do is watch someone do form 4 and tell whether they are a blk blt or not.

What sets EP American Kenpo apart from other arts? Kenpo is the study of motion and body mechanics. Kenpo emphasizes the proper use of torque, back up mass and gravitational marriage, elongating the circles and rounding off the lines for continuous and economical motion. Kenpo is all about how to move. Watching someone perform form 4, you can tell if the individual has the "black belt level" of movement knowledge and understanding of American Kenpo.

You can watch anyone in any martial art do a great form, but like mentioned, doesn't mean they can fight. But you can tell from their performance if they have power and body mechanics.

This thread was about form 4. In EP Kenpo, form 4 is our required black belt form. I can have a yellow belt that can fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but they won't yet have the EP Kenpo black belt level body mechanics or principles perfected yet. Watching someone do form 4 and you can tell if they have black belt understanding of Kenpo mechanics.

Teej

 

[Doc]

Interesting comment... Far be it from me to disagree with anyone so far, but ... The ability to move like a black belt is way over-rated ... Long philosophical discourse to follow.

Most people, so it seems, appear to have forgotten that the black belt is really the entry level to learning and that is for any art, chess, aikido, various forms of karaté and our own Kenpo.

The way people scramble for belts now a days, is intriguing. I know one fellow that I, personally, am fond of and he has numerous black belts. Does this make him able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag, as it were? Hardly.

The black belt is only an indication of knowledge acquired and perceived skill or technical capability. It has, now at any rate, no real indication of overall proficiency in the arena of combat.

As Martial Artists, we cover ourselves with various cloaks of ethics, honor, integrity, and bravery (well some of us do at any rate), but that, and all that, does not create a warrior.

There are, I surmise, a number of black belts out there, and some of them are relatively highly ranked I'd wager, who have never been in a fight. They have all the tools and knowledge, because they have done the required materials and put in the time and effort to become what they are. Is this an indication that they could fight their way out of a wet paper bag?

NOT … AT … ALL!

In my tiny shelllike mind, I believe that we can all sit around and talk "smack" as they call it today. But it is a different time and place than it was when folks like Doc, Conatser, myself (not including myself as a notable, only as at it a very long time), and others came up through the ranks.

In those golden and halcyon days, it was not improbable to come out of the dojo with smashed, sprained, gouged, and broken things hanging off of our bodies. It was not a matter of someone attacking you, you defending and then having to defend yourself again when s/he sued you for whatever they could get. A fight, win, lose or draw, was simply that, a fight.

We, I think I speak for others here but maybe not all, really aspired to the much coveted Black Belt. Not necessarily for how tough we were, but more for the idea that, at that point, we realized we really could begin to learn the system of Kenpo.

Heck, where I was, there was no rank beyond third Black and in our inestimable opinion, a first black could walk on water, lift buildings and walk under them, and catch arrows in his teeth (too bad no one carries bows and arrows anymore). But I digress.

The provenance of the black belt is, as I said before, nothing more than an indication of time spent. In the old Chinese arts, the didn’t use belts, they used titles, and called it all "Kung fu", a word that boils down in translation, to time spent and skill learned and earned. You could be considered to be "Kung fu" as a floor mopper, mechanic, cook, or whatever.

The black belt skills do not necessarily indicate that, in real life, a person could fight his or her way out of a wet paper bag. That, however, is the perception that we place on it, however mistaken that perception might be.

The only real way to know if someone can fight their way out of a wet paper bag is for them to have been tested in combat, and not found wanting. And, in all honesty, unless one lives in a movieland neighborhood like Speakman did in Perfect Weapon, or has a job like a bouncer, mercenary, bounty hunter, special ops, or the like, one does not have that many opportunities to find out if one can fight oneself out of a wet paper bag. Today, all these combative types of livelyhoods rely more on technology to complete the destruction of an enemy.

Even then, it is problematic.

It depends on the day, the surroundings, the opponent, the time, and on and on. One day, you may be the bravest or most foolish warrior in existence, like Funakoshi, who said, "If the foe be 10,000, but the cause is just, I go". Or ... you may be cloaked in all the sayings of Ed Parker, have all the chivalric attitudes of a Knight Templar, and when it comes down to crunch you might freeze and get your butt kicked. It happens.
So … I put to you that a Black Belt is not an indication of warrior capability.

Hope my ramblings didn’t put you to sleep.

OK I'm awake now Dan. For the record over time I've come across quite a plethora of individuals who didn't know Form 4 or anything else in Kenpo whom it would not be a good idea to challenge unless you had a lot more than the ability to perform form 4 well to someone else's satisfaction. So where do we draw the line? Just a thought.

 

[Doc]

... an individual does not have to be a black belt to be able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag. Many and or most of Mr. Parkers original students were already fighters before starting their kenpo training with him.

I agree sir. There were a bunch of tough guys who just got better under the guidance of Ed Parker when they began Kenpo. Many of them were "marker collectors," bikers, ex-military, etc. No women or children allowed. The "tradition" he brought from Chow when he started on the mainland was strickly blood and guts - and then he began teaching them kenpo.

I totally agree that a black belt should be able to defend themselves. That is a problem that I see a lot with students focusing on learning so many techniques but not being able to react properly or in time.

The "business" of kenpo makes no warranty beyond the teaching of the material. Most people never have a physical confrontation so the business model is "safe." Students "assume" they can defend themselves with what the guy tells them will really work.

Watching someone do form 4 and you can tell if they have black belt understanding of Kenpo mechanics.

Well yes, and a big no. The first thing that must be acknowledged is that the understanding of body mechanics among Kenpo practitioners in particular, and martial artists in general, is a wide, varied, and dubious bit of information.

The term "martial art" is an American creation initially coined to describe the "artistic" nature of the movements by western journalists and observers, of forms and "kata." The combat interaction initially was de-emphasized or omitted, except in the "martial sports" primarily coming out of Japan. Even "karate-do" practitioners were known as "karate players," modeled after its "judo players" precursor.

All of the sports out of Japan ending in "do" emphasized the activity as a discipline and the proper "way" to execute, with effective body mechanics relative to realistic applications not a requirement.

From the Western perspective, the combat "art" was actually "jiu-jitsu" (termed "combat judo"), to make the distinction from the competition "rondori" based "ju-do" that reached mainland America first.

So a discussion of "body mechanics" is one requiring extensive knowledge and experience that is essentially and generally absent. Particularly in the western hemisphere, with the exception of the limited perspective and application of high school, college, and pro sport coaches, and scientists who study such things. But even the scientists study the science of living mobility, and not combat applications.

Those who have studied "martial arts" from a guy with a belt, who studied from another guy who also had a belt, is no guarantee any of them know what they are doing in that regrad. The reason lineage was so important historically was to insure teachers were doing things the "way" the progenitor wanted things done. The efficacy of that "way" was not subject to examination for physical effectiveness of the body mechanics. Translation: "Do it the way I teach you and you will advance."

But we discovered many years ago, much of the "mimic" teaching of the "martial arts" prevalent then and today, does not guaratee anything except tuition payments on a regular basis.

What sets EP American Kenpo apart from other arts? Kenpo is the study of motion and body mechanics.

That statement alone is extremely insightful and describes the two biggest diversions and divisions in Ed Parker's own evolutions. The problem is they were/are never compatible in his teaching, and he made a very clear distinction between the two. Mr. Parker NEVER used the two terms together. He either taught "motion," OR he taught body mechanics. NEVER BOTH. The two are absolutely mutually exclusive of each other. "Motion" is an abstract general term and was used exclusively by Mr. Parker to describe the "art" he created for his business model.

"Body mechanics" is a specific term that has very specific parameters and knowledge when applied to the dynamics of human combat interactions. Mr. Parker did use this term to describe the "martial science" he was evolving and creating. Proper body mechanics requires specific movement, postures and their transitions.

If your school teaches Kenpo Motion, the first question to ask as a student is, who gave the teacher their understanding of "motion?"

If the school teaches "body mechanics," the second question to ask as a student is, where did the teacher get his knowledge of "body mechanics."

Very insightful Teej.

 

[kenpo tiger]

You young whiners need to quit!

Sorry Dr. Chapel. I didn't see this until today. Ask anyone who knows me. I don't whine.

Teej and Sigung 86: Further to the discussion of *combat testing* a fighter: what about those of us who, when confronted with a dangerous situation, were/are able to talk our way out of the fight? [We don't unleash the warrior until last in the salutation, do we?] Does that make one less of a fighter, or maybe demonstrates something else?

 

[Doc]

Sorry Dr. Chapel. I didn't see this until today. Ask anyone who knows me. I don't whine.

Teej and Sigung 86: Further to the discussion of *combat testing* a fighter: what about those of us who, when confronted with a dangerous situation, were/are able to talk our way out of the fight? [We don't unleash the warrior until last in the salutation, do we?] Does that make one less of a fighter, or maybe demonstrates something else?

It makes you "smart." De-escalation is a sign of maturity not found in the young tiger professors who are only impressed by their phyical prowess. Doesn't mean an old dragon can't smoke you if you get out of the pocket.

 

[Sigung86]

It makes you "smart." De-escalation is a sign of maturity not found in the young tiger professors who are only impressed by their phyical prowess. Doesn't mean an old dragon can't smoke you if you get out of the pocket.

Indeed ... Doc is absolutely correct.

But back to the original point of my getting into this fray... There are, in my estimation, Black Belts who have done everything they need to do to achieve the Black Belt, who are either by experience, or disposition, unable to fight their way out of the aforementioned wet paper bag.

Walking away is preferred, but not always an option.

I recall, about 12 years ago, or so, a TKD Black Belt self defense instructor in Los Angeles, of all places. She found her self in a bad situation, was unable to fight her way out and was consequently, strangled to death.

I suppose that we could assume that she decided it better to pay the ultimate price rather than fight back, but I would wonder why spend all that time and money learning to fight if one is not going to use it, if necessary?

That, is one example only, but still it is one.

 

[Doc]

Indeed ... Doc is absolutely correct.

But back to the original point of my getting into this fray... There are, in my estimation, Black Belts who have done everything they need to do to achieve the Black Belt, who are either by experience, or disposition, unable to fight their way out of the aforementioned wet paper bag.

Walking away is preferred, but not always an option.

I recall, about 12 years ago, or so, a TKD Black Belt self defense instructor in Los Angeles, of all places. She found her self in a bad situation, was unable to fight her way out and was consequently, strangled to death.

I suppose that we could assume that she decided it better to pay the ultimate price rather than fight back, but I would wonder why spend all that time and money learning to fight if one is not going to use it, if necessary?

That, is one example only, but still it is one.

The business of teaching martial arts does not warrant your ability to fight for obvious reasons. On the streets that I've worked, they have always said the same thing, "That karate s••t don't work!" I've always agreed with them because the majority of these people who have never fought, are being taught by someone else who has never fought. How do I know? The techniques have no semblance of reality or workability as performed. Most strret guys will take that black belt and strangle you with it, as Dan alluded to here in Los Angeles. Yes it really happened. I had a female student I inherited from another teacher of Tracy's Kenpo. She was an adult brown belt in her mid-twenties. During a technique line she kept freezing and didn't know what to do. I admonished her to do "something" even if she couldn't "remember" the technique at the moment. Instead, she cried. I told her it was ok to cry just don't stop fighting to do it. She didn't understand why she needed to do techniques "this way." She dclared that she was a brown belt and that her former teachers told her she was really good, so why was this necessary? I told her because when someone assults her, her teachers won't be there to protect her. "You'll be all by yourself, and the person attacking you won't give a dam what your teachers told you. She quit!

I had a student I inherited

 

[Flying Crane]

On the streets that I've worked, they have always said the same thing, "That karate s••t don't work!" I've always agreed with them because the majority of these people who have never fought, are being taught by someone else who has never fought.

This is an interesting point. As our society tends to frown upon fighting, and our law enforcement services are supposed to handle violent situations, it is entirely possible to go thru your whole life without ever having a real fight. Under these circumstances, the practice of a martial art is much more theoretical. What do you propose is the solution?

 

[Sapper6]

This is an interesting point. As our society tends to frown upon fighting, and our law enforcement services are supposed to handle violent situations, it is entirely possible to go thru your whole life without ever having a real fight. Under these circumstances, the practice of a martial art is much more theoretical. What do you propose is the solution?

train as if you are going to get your *** stomped tomorrow.

 

[jdinca]

train as if you are going to get your *** stomped tomorrow.

Eloquently put!

 

[kenpo tiger]

The business of teaching martial arts does not warrant your ability to fight for obvious reasons. On the streets that I've worked, they have always said the same thing, "That karate s••t don't work!" I've always agreed with them because the majority of these people who have never fought, are being taught by someone else who has never fought. How do I know? The techniques have no semblance of reality or workability as performed. Most strret guys will take that black belt and strangle you with it, as Dan alluded to here in Los Angeles. Yes it really happened. I had a female student I inherited from another teacher of Tracy's Kenpo. She was an adult brown belt in her mid-twenties. During a technique line she kept freezing and didn't know what to do. I admonished her to do "something" even if she couldn't "remember" the technique at the moment. Instead, she cried. I told her it was ok to cry just don't stop fighting to do it. She didn't understand why she needed to do techniques "this way." She dclared that she was a brown belt and that her former teachers told her she was really good, so why was this necessary? I told her because when someone assults her, her teachers won't be there to protect her. "You'll be all by yourself, and the person attacking you won't give a dam what your teachers told you. She quit!

The reason I came to kenpo is because my former instructors, both in tkd and a *mud* (as my master instructor likes to put it) art kept telling me that I knew "enough". Well, exactly what is "enough"? That poor woman who was killed may have thought she knew "enough". I used to view black belt (before I earned one) as "enough". Now it's not "enough" because it's a starting point where I see that I am really just beginning to learn. If techniques are ideas, which I'm told Mr. Parker Sr. conceived them as (I know you'll correct me if that's wrong), then I'm just starting to get the idea by practicing them on large bodies (albeit benign ones but they still hit me hard enough at times to make my teeth rattle.)

Most women are brought up NOT to be fighters but rather nurturers and care-givers. It's an alien concept to hit and be hit for most of us. Takes a great deal of determination and suspension of the ethos with which one was raised to throw and connect with that first strike. But how amazing is it when you realize you can do it.

Man I worked with used to say to me "take the measure of your opponent and give him half again". Yes, it's scary to be confronted in the street 'all by yourself' -- it's happened twice -- but I'd rather live to tell the tale and escape relatively unscathed because I could avoid the fight or engage long enough to disable and run.

Just don't threaten my kids. No telling what I'd do then.