Lets get real about the USAT..

IcemanSK

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Thanks for answering my question Terry. That was really my point. I don't think the US has a whole lot of poomsae gurus to choose from. Having seen GM An, Jae-yoon & MSUTKD go head to head with dueling Cheonkwon poomsae at the 2009 instructor's course in Chicago, I realized I was looking at a whole different level of performance than is the norm at even the highest tournament levels. Maybe it will take a few years to develop the coaches, as well as athletes, to be up to par with other countries. The question of "why they have it & we don't" is a mystery to me. But it seems to be the case. Learning what can be done better is all a part of good competition. We (the US) can't whine that we didn't do better (certainly the athletes & coaches aren't doing that) but we have things we need to work on. But that is what good competition is all about.
 

Poomsaeguy

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Pick any member of that team, they are all awesome! Every time I am round them I learn something new or correct something that I am doing incorrect. Master Southwick is a class act! He has helped me so much on the mental side of training. Give it time you we see these team members rise to the top! Remember winning isn't everything!
 

taekwondodo

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Not sure about Poomsae. It is more of a subjective competition, and not much for a coach to coach when competing. However for sparring I keep saying, let the fighters choose who they want to coach them. The fighters know who they are comfortable with. There is more to coaching than just seeing techniques. The mindset of a fighter is just a coachable and knowing how to handle that mindset can be a tricky thing. .
Sir, with all due respect I have to say, you do not fully understand Poomsae competition.
There is a whole bunch of things for a coach to do to prep an athlete hours, minutes, and in between each Poomsae.

1. to prep an athlete days before a competition: The team coach(es) watched the athlete perform their poomsae, get to know them as they practice their poomsae. Point out their mistakes, suggest things that they CAN change. Get to know their mental state as the day goes by. Calm their spirits, and motivate them.

2. Hours before the competiton: Take them to a quiet place for them to practice, stretch them, keep track of when they are up.

3. Minutes before the competition: If the competitors, like me, start to have performance anxiety or start to have doubts, fears..etc. This is where the coach is needed. The coach sensed the athlete anxiety, and anxious, then he/she should calm them down, and refocus them. I am a good example because 10 minutes before I supposed to be up at World, I re-run Shipjin, and I somehow going the wrong way, facing the wrong direction. I did it again, same thing.. what happens??? What am I missing??? Coach Thackery talked to me in her calm voice, refocused me and tell me to breath. I did, rerun my form again, and realized I misssed a step. I felt more confident when I stepped on the mat.

4. In between form: the coach has 30 seconds to calm the competitor and get them to refocus if they didn't too well on the first form. The coach also remind the competitor to do certain technique(s) for the next form to prevent deductions. Or she/he can reasure the competitor that they are doing well and don't forget to breath.

So coaching is important in Poomsae competion, because they can point out pointers, motivate, calm you down, keep you focus.

As for Master Kim, he is a wonderful sweet guy. He is our advocate for Poomsae because with out him, we do not have an advocate. The problem lies with USAT who doesn't think or realized how important Poomsae movements is.

Some one was asking to have a Poomsae "guru" for the Team. Do you realized that the USA Poomsae Team had 3 Poomsae IRs as assistant coaches. There were 5 athletes who also Poomsae IRs? No one knows more about Poomsaes than the assistant coaches and the athletes stated above? Even though Master Kim expertise is in sparring, however, I realized his knowlege also helps us with the poomsae program. Don't minimized his knowlege because we do not know him fully.

In my opinion, what we also need is a trainer/stretching person whose undertand the body and aging body. This person can help to prep us before the training and before the competition.

Master Kim has something brewing and because of his status, he can get certain thing done. Even though he and the Poomsae program doesn't have ANY support from USAT, what he has is the great resources from the US Team members. The great thing about the Poomsae Team is that there are many great athletes who are experienced in what they do outside of TKD. These athletes has experience in Engineering, IT, social works, real estate, etc.. that can help Master Kim do develope a great program for the future.

Sparring is just alot of kids with no real life experience to contribute. *just kidding*

As for the question, why other countries did better than the US. Well, let me tell you a piece of knowlege that we found out. The Vietnam, Phillipine, Malasia, Korean, Chinese Teams trained 6 - 7 hours each day in Poomsae. Poomsae is their career/life and they eat, sleep and train Poomsae. Also, to some country, when an athlete win a Gold medal, they get XX dollars from their NGB. The US athletes has their own career and families to think about. Poomsae training is secondary and can be squeezed in between errand, homeworks, after work, family..etc.

The second point, the US team only do 2 major International competition, US Open and World. Other countries compete in many major international event because they have the means, the time, and the support.

I think that is all I have to say.
 

miguksaram

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Great post Taekwondodo. I couldn't agree more. Though I am not huge in doing TKD forms in competition I am very much involved in forms competition for sport karate competition. There is a lot that goes into training and coaching of forms that many people do not realize.

I would really like to see some of the Team USA people showing up at the US Open Hanmadang. I think it would be a real treat to see that caliber of competition. Not to mention a chance to possibly to do seminars for some of the aspiring competitors who attend the event. Keep up the great work that you guys do.
 
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msmitht

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Wouldn't it be nice if usat had athetes come together for poomsae training camps a few times per year? The camp would be open to all for a fee but free to the team members. We could get guest masters from all over to teach. Imagine: athetes first!
 

ATC

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...As for the question, why other countries did better than the US. Well, let me tell you a piece of knowlege that we found out. The Vietnam, Phillipine, Malasia, Korean, Chinese Teams trained 6 - 7 hours each day in Poomsae. Poomsae is their career/life and they eat, sleep and train Poomsae. Also, to some country, when an athlete win a Gold medal, they get XX dollars from their NGB. The US athletes has their own career and families to think about. Poomsae training is secondary and can be squeezed in between errand, homeworks, after work, family..etc...
This is the case for almost all our athletes in all amature sports.
 

granfire

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This is the case for almost all our athletes in all amature sports.

ah, no. Only on the amateur level. When you go international that won't cut it. Never has.
That's why all the top athletes were in their country's armies, or had a cushy job at a main sponsor.
Also they can generally expect to get their governmental body's support. not mushroom treatment.

I know it is a matter of pride for the US that they don't support their athletes via government like the rest of the world, but in reality you can't mix it up in the elite while having a real life.

A lady once told me how she had to make all life around her all about her when she was actively competing in bodybuilding. She didn't go past regional success (no steroids) but there was not much room for anything else.
 

ATC

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Sir, with all due respect I have to say, you do not fully understand Poomsae competition.
There is a whole bunch of things for a coach to do to prep an athlete hours, minutes, and in between each Poomsae.
I thought I started my statement out with "I'm not sure about Poomsae", then just stated something about it being subjective?

Anyways your explanation was a good one. And I agree with everything you said. We actually have a Poomsae team and have coaches for it also. Our head poomsae coaches is also a USAT ref and helped teach a few Poomsae seminars that USAT provided for coaches and refs.

With that said I simply tried to state that during the actual performance there is nothing a coach can do. Before and in between each performance you perfectly stated all that a coach can and should do.
 

ATC

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ah, no. Only on the amateur level. When you go international that won't cut it. Never has.
That's why all the top athletes were in their country's armies, or had a cushy job at a main sponsor.
Also they can generally expect to get their governmental body's support. not mushroom treatment.

I know it is a matter of pride for the US that they don't support their athletes via government like the rest of the world, but in reality you can't mix it up in the elite while having a real life.

A lady once told me how she had to make all life around her all about her when she was actively competing in bodybuilding. She didn't go past regional success (no steroids) but there was not much room for anything else.
What do you mean "No"? You just stated exactly what I quoted my statment againts. We just said the same thing.
 

granfire

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What do you mean "No"? You just stated exactly what I quoted my statment againts. We just said the same thing.

Eternal exhaustion....no to what you quoted I suppose (I wish i could remember)

In any case, true amateurs can't make it to the top. Unless they are independently wealthy.
 

miguksaram

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Wouldn't it be nice if usat had athetes come together for poomsae training camps a few times per year? The camp would be open to all for a fee but free to the team members. We could get guest masters from all over to teach. Imagine: athetes first!
That's crazy talk! :)
 

taekwondodo

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Ok, so lets say hypothetically, there is a Poomsae Developement camp from USAT, what would you like to learn from the camp?

Also, why wait for USAT to sponsor one? Anyone can sponsor one. If you know me, I don't wait for any man, or organization to develope me. I will wait forever. i just do it.

Any idea?
 

miguksaram

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Ok, so lets say hypothetically, there is a Poomsae Developement camp from USAT, what would you like to learn from the camp?

Also, why wait for USAT to sponsor one? Anyone can sponsor one. If you know me, I don't wait for any man, or organization to develope me. I will wait forever. i just do it.

Any idea?
You can import a lot of different learning ideas. Depending on the age group you could teach work ethics and goal setting techniques as part of your forms development. A camp/seminar should teach drills to improve your form, tips and tricks from the top forms people. Conditioning regiments that is specifically geared towards form development. Naturally you should run the form repeatedly & correctly (<-key word) in order build up the muscle memory for competition.

I agree that you do not have to wait for USAT to put one together. I'm sure many of these team members would be happy to do a seminar (for a fee and expenses of course). Putting a training camp together is a bit more of a production but anyone willing to put the time into can do it. We hold 3 training camps a year. Two of them are 4-day camps and one is a 30-day camp.
 

Poomsaeguy

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I mentioned something last year that If USAT would require or ask state associations to have National Poomsae team members conduct a few seminars in thier states backed and publicized by USAT ether before states and nationals the fees paid would more the offset must of the travel expenses for team members. Just an idea.
 

RSweet

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I mentioned something last year that If USAT would require or ask state associations to have National Poomsae team members conduct a few seminars in thier states backed and publicized by USAT ether before states and nationals the fees paid would more the offset must of the travel expenses for team members. Just an idea.

I was not the only one who brought up this idea, but I was the one who had to listen to the shoot down. I thought the money from entry fees from poomsae competitors at Nationals and JO's should go to the poomsae team. I even suggested a statement of support (May 2009) for the poomsae team and they refused. There is no money. It has been mismanaged. It is a shame that this team could not be treated like the poomsae team. Not just poomsae, but the demo team. I can't figure out how demo team is selected and how what team gets to go. I see Barb Kunkel's team is going this year - go team! but I can't find how they decided - and of course, there was no money allocated that I can see.
 

taekwondodo

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Well, I know the my state's President, the refereee chairman and the advisor. I am sure I can put something together and they will support me. No penny will goes to USAT for sure.

Also, I will probably organized a group to go to the 2012 European Master Games, then there is 2012 Canada Open in Toronto. We can do this without the involvement of USAT. As I said, I am not waiting for any organization to sponsor because that will be a long time away.
 

RSweet

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Well, I know the my state's President, the refereee chairman and the advisor. I am sure I can put something together and they will support me. No penny will goes to USAT for sure.

Also, I will probably organized a group to go to the 2012 European Master Games, then there is 2012 Canada Open in Toronto. We can do this without the involvement of USAT. As I said, I am not waiting for any organization to sponsor because that will be a long time away.

I had forgotten that at the Martial Arts Commission was supposed to be over this. In fact, I remember in 2009 that the MAC said they would find $20K or so for the team - that would be the year they had to pass the hat for entry fees. They then figured out how much it would cost for their delegation to go and that was about the whole amount they could raise - not $20K. In the end, Rick Shin went along as the MAC representative. That was the last I heard of the MAC taking responsibility for the poomsae team, although one of the whole purposes for the creation of the MAC was just this sort of thing.
 

taekwondodo

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Thank Ronda for remind me to calculate the approximate cost of the 28 member Poomsae team to go to Vladivostok: 4 coaches (3 assistant and 1 main), a team manager, and 23 athletes. The approximate cost is $126,000. Approximately $4500.00/per person.
 

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