Learning Without An Instructor.

[MJS]

Lately, I've noticed people inquiring about learning from a tape, dvd or book. I know that we've touched on this topic in the past, but I'm just amazed, despite people saying its not possible, why folks would want to go this route to learn.

Usually someone will say that there are no Martial Art programs in their area. That almost seems hard to believe, as I have at least 7 schools within a half hour drive from my house.

Its unfortunate that people are always looking for that quick fix. This is not just limited to the arts, but pretty much anything. I was in the grocery store this past Sunday, and while walking down one aisle, I saw a number of diet pills on the shelf. How about watching what you eat, lifting some weights and doing some cardio, rather than popping 5 different pills to supposedly 'burn the fat' from our body.

I'd rather put in the hard work, making sure I'm doing things correctly, learning from a qualified instructor, than take my chances with a book or tape. As a reference tool, they're ok, but to be the sole learning tool...not good IMO.

Thoughts?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I use a lot of tapes as an adjunct to my in person training. I have a sensei, and I work with him twice a week. At this level, he teaches me mostly conceptual stuff. One kata per belt rank, a technique or two, but generally just ideas and applications of those ideas.

In between classes, I buy and work with videos to round out the corners. Since I have solid basics, I find I can incorporate what they have to teach fairly easily.

I wouldn't recommend anybody learn martial arts this way. But to add material to a base already solidly learned, it's a pretty cool way to get exposure to lots of different ideas.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I hardly see my teacher anymore, so I tend to favour books tapes and DVDs as training tools. However, I would not seek to learn martial arts from scratch from them. My teacher commented that I have a strange knack for picking up techniques from books. I attribute this to a solid understanding of fundamental stances and techniques.

All beginners should find a teacher. There really is no quick fix is MA. Learn the basics and then see where it takes you.

 

[Langenschwert]

Self-teaching through books and video has been an important part of the revival of WMA and HES, so it is a valuable addition to direct teaching. One European sword master said once "one cannot become a good master of the sword without books". Presumably, he meant that one master cannot know everything, so supplementing one's training with the books of other masters would be a good thing.

That being said, it is VERY difficult. The revival of HES started with studying the manuals of the masters, but people take every opportunity to study with well-respected instructors if they can.

IMO, the best path is to have hands-on, FTF instruction. Supplement that with whatever secondary material that's useful, and you're well on your way.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

I think that tapes can be great, if they are used as an addition to a regular, instructor led class, not in place of one.

 

[Andrew Green]

While difficult, and not ideal, I would say it is possible. A lot can be learnt from books and videos and training on your own. But you need people to train with, not just standing in front of the tv mimicking motions. You will likely plataeu at a fairly moderate level without a coach.

Same as other sports, people learn to play basketball, skateboard, BMX, snowboard, etc. All without the aid of "qualified instructors" all the time, its just the much harder route, and as martial arts is a one-on-one thing, you need that other person to spar with.

 

[Adept]

Usually someone will say that there are no Martial Art programs in their area. That almost seems hard to believe, as I have at least 7 schools within a half hour drive from my house.

I can believe it. I live at least half an hour from the nearest large town, and in that town there are only three schools. Two of them are TKD and one is Karate. If you wanted to learn jujitsu, you'd be looking at nearly a three hour round trip for one class. For Muay Thai or MMA, you'd be looking at a four to six hour round trip.

 

[seasoned]

Lately, I've noticed people inquiring about learning from a tape, dvd or book. I know that we've touched on this topic in the past, but I'm just amazed, despite people saying its not possible, why folks would want to go this route to learn.

Good point, my thought is a good instructor or tape/book will tell you what and how to do something, but a great instructor will guide you on what to feel while doing it. Books and dvds are a good tool to add to the tool box you already have.

 

[morph4me]

Books and tapes are great for adding to already existing knowledge. Learning martial arts from books or tapes, you miss some of the subtleties and books can't answer the "what if" questions. If someone wants to learn martial arts for exercise, then learning from books or tapes won't matter, because they'll be doing the movements and getting the exercise, if someone is trying to learn self defense, that's a different story.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm surprised to see that learning from media is being supported by quite a few experienced people here.

In terms of Western Sword Arts, I can see that there is no other choice usually, given the dearth of 'qualified' instructors (and I have to admit I bought the I.33 DVD from Boarstooth just to look for similarities with my own art).

Still, I would fully expect that a lot of un-learning and re-training has to happen as soon as a book-taught, self-instructed, student begins instruction under someone who has learned the art via the traditional route {those who read an implied 'Proper' in there can see my bias showing :lol:}.

Before starting MJER, I read a couple of 'instruction' books on the subject and even then, as a complete neophyte, I thought "How on earth will you ever know if you are doing it right?". Media-self-instructed individuals are the major cause of wince-makingly bad MA videos on YouTube - don't support it !

 

[MJS]

I can believe it. I live at least half an hour from the nearest large town, and in that town there are only three schools. Two of them are TKD and one is Karate. If you wanted to learn jujitsu, you'd be looking at nearly a three hour round trip for one class. For Muay Thai or MMA, you'd be looking at a four to six hour round trip.

Yes, you bring up some good points. I guess it comes down to a few things:

1) Is the person willing to make that 3 hr. drive? If someone was hellbent on learning an art that was that far away, they would make the drive, in addition to setting up privates, etc. Of course, not everyone is willing or capable of doing that, so that leads to 2.

2) If you couldn't or didn't want to make that long drive, then until you could make other arrangements, settle for the next pick.

3) If the person didn't want to make the 3 hr. drive and didn't want to settle for a second pick, dvd/book training is the last resort, but is it worth it? If someone wants to spend the time learning an art, you'd think that they'd want to be good at it and get as much out of it as possible. Is that going to be possible via dvd?

Mike

 

[Blindside]

I spent (largely wasted) two years trying to learn escrima/kali from video. We had a small study group of experienced martial artists (3 of us had 10+ years in martial arts) who formed a study group, some of us with small amounts of previous experience in one system of escrima or another. We did lots of drilling, but after a couple of years we wound up dumping that route and driving 6 hours round trip twice a month to get private instruction. We progressed farther in 6 months than we had in the previous two years.

Honestly I should have known better, I've seen a number of practitioners from a well-known kenpo video training series, and I've been less than impressed. I thought we could do better, since we had previous experience, I was wrong.

I still use video for reference, for getting new ideas, but I just can't accept it as a means of primary instruction any more.

Lamont

 

[exile]

Before starting MJER, I read a couple of 'instruction' books on the subject and even then, as a complete neophyte, I thought "How on earth will you ever know if you are doing it right?".

To my way of thinking, Mark has nailed the problem right here. People who learn from videos cannot possibly have that deep, solid confidence in what they've acquired that way because there's an upper limit on how secure they can be about just what it is they have acquired. It's not all that easy to learn complex moves from a video—you think it's going to be, but it isn't; there's too much going on in any sequence of movements, and often very small and subtle point make the difference. I was reminded of this at the seminar on Combat Hapkido I went to over the weekend. One of the component techs involves countering a grab, to wrist or shirt, by covering the gripping hand with your own, folding it and twisting it, and then rotating it in at a particular direction corresponding to an angle where the wrist has almost no rotational freedom. There's no way uke can stay on his feet when significant pressure is appied to the wrist in this way, but you either actually have to be there to see what that angle is, or the video would have to spend a good deal of time and footage emphasizing the point. But the latter possibility is pretty much ruled out by the amount of other stuff that the video will cover. A good instructor, however, will make it clear with just a word or two if you're not getting it right; s/he'll see what you're doing and if it's ineffective, will correct it by showing you how it's done, in just a few seconds of instruction time. And then you'll know just what it is you're supposed to be doing. With a video, you're never going to be able to be quite sure, as Mark points out.

I happen to have a serious problem processing complex spatial relationships, or even simple ones for that matter. And a surprising number of people I've talked to have the same problem, though maybe to a lesser degree. For me, watching moves on a DVD that I don't already pretty much know is just baffling for the first half hour or so until I can work out what the people are actually doing, and even then, I'm none too sure about what I'm seeing. With an instructor physically present, it's a totally different ball game, and worth any amount of time and money, I think, if you're really serious about getting it right.

 

[jks9199]

I can believe it. I live at least half an hour from the nearest large town, and in that town there are only three schools. Two of them are TKD and one is Karate. If you wanted to learn jujitsu, you'd be looking at nearly a three hour round trip for one class. For Muay Thai or MMA, you'd be looking at a four to six hour round trip.

Exactly. There might be many martial arts schools in an area.... but nobody (at least openly or easily found) that offers what the student wants. When I first started formal training, I joined the club that a few of my friends had just joined. I hoped/planned to eventually find a "ninjutsu school" (forgive me; this was the mid/late 80s!) and Bando was simply something to do. Twenty years later, I'm still training Bando. I've still got a lot to learn, too!

I'm surprised to see that learning from media is being supported by quite a few experienced people here.

In terms of Western Sword Arts, I can see that there is no other choice usually, given the dearth of 'qualified' instructors (and I have to admit I bought the I.33 DVD from Boarstooth just to look for similarities with my own art).

Still, I would fully expect that a lot of un-learning and re-training has to happen as soon as a book-taught, self-instructed, student begins instruction under someone who has learned the art via the traditional route {those who read an implied 'Proper' in there can see my bias showing :lol:}.

Before starting MJER, I read a couple of 'instruction' books on the subject and even then, as a complete neophyte, I thought "How on earth will you ever know if you are doing it right?". Media-self-instructed individuals are the major cause of wince-makingly bad MA videos on YouTube - don't support it !

I'm not a fan of videos at all. I find that many videos obscure key elements unless they're carefully planned and structured to show them.

I spent (largely wasted) two years trying to learn escrima/kali from video. We had a small study group of experienced martial artists (3 of us had 10+ years in martial arts) who formed a study group, some of us with small amounts of previous experience in one system of escrima or another. We did lots of drilling, but after a couple of years we wound up dumping that route and driving 6 hours round trip twice a month to get private instruction. We progressed farther in 6 months than we had in the previous two years.

Honestly I should have known better, I've seen a number of practitioners from a well-known kenpo video training series, and I've been less than impressed. I thought we could do better, since we had previous experience, I was wrong.

I still use video for reference, for getting new ideas, but I just can't accept it as a means of primary instruction any more.

Lamont

I can see using a video or book as a reference for an advanced student, the same way that I can be given a set of notes and work from them to learn a new form. But even then, there's no substitute for actually working with someone who really knows that form or technique and can correct you and guide you. I don't even like videos as a reference; I've seen people who "review" thier video, and miss out the key element or step because of the angle... or because they "learned" it when they took the video -- but didn't really understand or have it.

It's possible to TRAIN on your own. And it's possible to learn without an instructor. It's just hard to learn properly without an instructor. It's so hard -- it's nearly impossible. A very few, very talented and gifted people can learn and essentially develop their own martial art without guidance... but it's going to include a lot of trial and error. (Probably painful error!)

 

[Andrew Green]

Different people learn different ways though, I'm really good with spacial relationships in that sense.

Learning by video is not something everyone can do, but I wouldn't say its impossible.

Although a traditional art, based largely in forms and drills, that I think would be impossible. Something like wrestling I think a person could make decent progress with, but probably never get really good.

 

[Blindside]

Although a traditional art, based largely in forms and drills, that I think would be impossible. Something like wrestling I think a person could make decent progress with, but probably never get really good.

I've seen that in BJJ, I started in 96 shortly after the BJJ craze started, and lots of people only had access through video. Guys would come in that knew how to do a sub, but they left so much space, and things just weren't ever as tight as someone who learned from a legitimate instructor.

 

[Andrew Green]

I've seen that in BJJ, I started in 96 shortly after the BJJ craze started, and lots of people only had access through video. Guys would come in that knew how to do a sub, but they left so much space, and things just weren't ever as tight as someone who learned from a legitimate instructor.

True, better then nothing though

Not to mention all the grappling videos and books from them where pretty bad, at least from what I have seen. Just techniques, nothing on how to drill or train them.

I think a well thought out program that included things like how to actually train could get a person to a decent level. It will never match the level of someone who is training in a club with a good coach and people that know what they are doing to work against, but a decent level yes.

I also have no problem with that. People play baseball, football, soccer, street hockey, basketball, tennis, golf, and countless other sports for fun, without a instructor. Just learning as they go, maybe picking up a book here or there, and get to a decent level. They have fun and stay in shape, they are not at a competitive level, but thats ok. That's probably not the goal. Why can't people do martial arts in the same way?

As a side note, my Grandmother taught herself some tai chi from video. i've never seen it, but the quality isn't important. She enjoyed it and got some stretching, balance and excercise, anyone think that is wrong?

 

[Langenschwert]

In terms of Western Sword Arts, I can see that there is no other choice usually, given the dearth of 'qualified' instructors (and I have to admit I bought the I.33 DVD from Boarstooth just to look for similarities with my own art).

That's a great DVD. I'm working out of it myself, as there is no one here teaching I.33. It only covers two stances and plays from them, but it covers them in great detail, from multiple angles and such. It's only a fraction of the totality of the manual, but it's a great introduction. I do have some previous sword & buckler training, at least, but it's slow going. We're taking it one move at a time.

I would prefer to go to Boar's Tooth, but it's a bit of a hike.

Also worth getting are the Italian Rapier DVDs from the Martinez Academy of Arms. They supplement my previous FTF rapier training quite well.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Flying Crane]

Its unfortunate that people are always looking for that quick fix. This is not just limited to the arts, but pretty much anything. I was in the grocery store this past Sunday, and while walking down one aisle, I saw a number of diet pills on the shelf. How about watching what you eat, lifting some weights and doing some cardio, rather than popping 5 different pills to supposedly 'burn the fat' from our body.

I think this is really central to the issue. Everyone wants it NOW. we are an attention-deficient society.

We also have all this great new technology that makes a lot of things possible that were not in the past. But it isn't always appropriate. Just because the technology exists, it doesn't mean it should be used in every case. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. It's just not a good way to go about it, for the vast majority of people.

 

[exile]

I think this is really central to the issue. Everyone wants it NOW. we are an attention-deficient society.

We also have all this great new technology that makes a lot of things possible that were not in the past. But it isn't always appropriate. Just because the technology exists, it doesn't mean it should be used in every case. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. It's just not a good way to go about it, for the vast majority of people.

Again, this speaks very well to the point, which is, I think, that part of the effort that's demanded of you when you want to do something is the effort entailed by doing right, so that you actually accomplish what you want to do. Convenience doesn't rule. We've been conditioned to a `magic bullet' way of thinking (that's where those diet pills that Michael's alluding to come in, I'm pretty sure). No one wants to hear that, well, this is a systemic problem, you are going to have to make multiple changes that work in tandem to produce the desired result—9 times out of 10, the response will be, Hey, to hell with that, just gimma a pill I can take.... I'm coming to think of instructional DVDs (not just in the MAs!) as being to learning something like what pills are to health: they've become the model, almost the default. If only it really were that easy, eh?