lack of serious martial artists

[Diagen]

I don't understand the term in this context. I drag my tired old body into the dojo twice a week to teach and train. I get value from it or I would not do it. Some of my fellow students are there for other reasons than I am. Which of us is serious and which of us are not?

For general energy, jump rope and vinegar is best.
EDIT: And onions.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For general energy, jump rope and vinegar is best.
EDIT: And onions.

Oh lord.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For general energy, jump rope and vinegar is best.
EDIT: And onions.

What is the evidence to back that? It’s a pretty straightforward claim, so should be easy to show evidence for.

 

[J. Pickard]

I don't understand the term in this context. I drag my tired old body into the dojo twice a week to teach and train. I get value from it or I would not do it. Some of my fellow students are there for other reasons than I am. Which of us is serious and which of us are not?

I don't know your students but if you are training for a reason and with purpose and not just showing up for the sake of showing up I would say that you are definitely a serious student. In this regard I am referring to teens and adults that don't put in any effort and when you ask them to try they decide to quit. There are many reasons to train in a martial art but in order to get anything out of it you absolutely have to put something into it. Good example; Had a 14 year old join for about 2 months. He only signed up because his parents told him he couldn't just sit at home all day, he either joined a recreational activity of some kind or got a job. After about 2 months of showing up but not putting in much effort, he approached me and asked how much longer until he got a black belt. My response was there was no designated time it all depends on the effort he puts in, to which he responded by asking how much money it would cost him to get me to give him a black belt and black belt certificate. When I told him he couldn't buy rank he sat out of the class that day and didn't come back. When I tried to contact the parents to check in on him their response was that it was more work to get him to go to class than it was worth. This has been my primary experience with teenagers and their parents; lazy, unmotivated, and undisciplined with no desire to change. Adults on the other hand tend to just be too exhausted from working 12 hour days at the factory or want to train but it's at the same time as something their kid(s) are participating in and family comes first and I don't blame them for that.

I ask every student before they even sign up what their reason for training is and most of the time teens say that they want to get a black belt. When I ask why they never seem to really know so I tell them I will try to help them find out why they want a black belt. Then as we train they learn what it is going to take to get a black belt and decide they don't want it that badly.

The best analogy I can think of when it comes to teens "wanting" to get black belt is this;
Daughter: "Mom, I want to learn about relationships."
Mom: "Go ask your father."
Daughter: "I don't want to learn that much."

 

[isshinryuronin]

The best analogy I can think of when it comes to teens "wanting" to get black belt is this;
Daughter: "Mom, I want to learn about relationships."
Mom: "Go ask your father."
Daughter: "I don't want to learn that much."

Funny. But I don't think it's so much they don't want to learn, but as you inferred, they don't want to put in the effort. There may be "want" but not the need. It's not internalized. They are not seekers.

I am probably not communicating my thoughts well, but martial arts takes dedication. Who wants to spend years (or even months) on repetitive exercise, sweating, striving for excellence, risking injury or some pain, feeling inadequate, disciplining themselves to train and when taking a fall to get back up, and all the rest that comes with it? Many of you will say, "No big deal, I've done it," but you are the exception. Not everyone (most) don't have what it takes.

The challenge for an instructor is to retain the student who is "naive" of what MA offers (and takes) until the real benefits reveal themselves to the student. At that time, the training wheels can come off and they can ride the bike on their own. Most will not reach that point.

 

[Alan0354]

I don't think this is unique in MA, same as many other skills like ballet, playing musical instruments and others. So many people get started, but lax off and quit after a few months. Some just kind of hanging around. It takes a lot of discipline, determination and patient to excel. Most people just don't have it. Look at the rate of student quiting.

 

[dunc]

I feel that a class can be tough, technical etc and enjoyable too

 

[Yokozuna514]

I ask every student before they even sign up what their reason for training is and most of the time teens say that they want to get a black belt. When I ask why they never seem to really know so I tell them I will try to help them find out why they want a black belt. Then as we train they learn what it is going to take to get a black belt and decide they don't want it that badly.

The best analogy I can think of when it comes to teens "wanting" to get black belt is this;
Daughter: "Mom, I want to learn about relationships."
Mom: "Go ask your father."
Daughter: "I don't want to learn that much."

I can appreciate what you are saying here. I think it is a natural response from a teen. Not to get too crazy with analogies but teens 'eyes are generally bigger than their stomachs'. They often want what they see but do not always understand how to properly evaluate how to get there I think that is our main task as a guide (ie: The one who has been there before). We know what it takes to get there and it's for us to help them find their way. It may not be exactly the same path as the one we took but we can always learn from our own mistakes and perhaps spare others.......or not. That may also be part of the journey. Each guide has their own idea of how to get there.

 

[Diagen]

Oh lord.

What is the evidence to back that? It’s a pretty straightforward claim, so should be easy to show evidence for.

Haha he fears the jump rope. For jump rope it's less impact on the knees than jogging and is similar enough in muscle requirement to replicate it. Cardio or whole body conditioning is known to boost general energy levels. Boxers that do not do enough jump rope have poor conditioning and poor coordination compared to those that do (generally).
A vinegar mix was the drink of choice for Roman soldiers, reported to give them more energy to train and march and march and march. The roman legion was known for their diligent march training. It was usually watered down with some salt added.
Onion I have personal experience with as generally increasing energy and willingness to exert oneself. I have seen studies where it boosts free testosterone as well. One is in rats and one is a guy in another forum that did blood work before and after eating an onion every day for a couple weeks or a month and found higher levels of free testosterone.

The effects of dance music jump rope exercise on pulmonary function and body mass index after music jump rope exercise in overweight adults in 20’s

[Purpose] The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of a dance music jump rope exercise on changes Pulmonary Function and body mass index in female overweight subjects in their 20’s. [Subjects and Methods] The subjects were randomly ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lung function improves moreso with jump rope than cycling.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1170647.pdf

Study shows that male students going through P.E. regularly AND doing jump rope improve in metrics of speed, VO2 max and body composition moreso than those doing the P.E. lessons alone.

Jump Rope Training: Balance and Motor Coordination in Preadolescent Soccer Players

General physical practice and multidimensional exercises are essential elements that allow young athletes to enhance their coordinative traits, balance, and strength and power levels, which are linked to the learning soccer-specific skills. Jumping rope ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Two groups, one doing soccer specific drills, and the other doing jump rope, shows that the jump rope group developed greater coordination and motor control by their improvement in an agility test while the soccer drill group did not improve after the 8 week study.

Jump rope of course increases bone, tendon and muscle strength in the lower body. Cardio improves muscle function and growth.

All in all jump rope is the way to go for cardio, conditioning and general energy and well-being.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All in all jump rope is the way to go for cardio, conditioning and general energy and well-being.

You can obtain the same result by doing MA training. Jump rope, running, swimming, ... are all good for health. But those are not MA training.

 

[Diagen]

You can obtain the same result by doing MA training. Jump rope, running, swimming, ... are all good for health. But those are not MA training.

Haha if he was conditioned from MA he would not be so tired and grumpy. I don't think he'd be stuck replying with one liners or bulletpoints when I give him a complex topic either.
He can't even be bothered to look at martial arts related training [knowledge] either.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You can obtain the same result by doing MA training. Jump rope, running, swimming, ... are all good for health. But those are not MA training.

Why not?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funny. But I don't think it's so much they don't want to learn, but as you inferred, they don't want to put in the effort. There may be "want" but not the need. It's not internalized. They are not seekers.

I am probably not communicating my thoughts well, but martial arts takes dedication. Who wants to spend years (or even months) on repetitive exercise, sweating, striving for excellence, risking injury or some pain, feeling inadequate, disciplining themselves to train and when taking a fall to get back up, and all the rest that comes with it? Many of you will say, "No big deal, I've done it," but you are the exception. Not everyone (most) don't have what it takes.

The challenge for an instructor is to retain the student who is "naive" of what MA offers (and takes) until the real benefits reveal themselves to the student. At that time, the training wheels can come off and they can ride the bike on their own. Most will not reach that point.

I love the term @Tony Dismukes gave me for those of us who aren't professionals in MA: hobbyists. I think thinking of it as a hobby makes it easier to understand what happens. Most of us have a hobby other than MA. For some of us, we are REALLY serious about that hobby. For some of us, it's just something we like doing well enough to be worth the work it entails to keep doing it, and we get pretty good at it just by enjoying the process. Sometimes that hobby even turns out to be something we can make a career/business out of.

But most of us also have a trail of hobbies we tried out and didn't really stick with. We might even have the detritus of those explorations in closets and attics. Some of us even stuck with it for a while, but really couldn't find enough motivation in that hobby to be worth the effort it needed. And some of us managed to find an easy path in that hobby, so were able to keep going with it, without ever really getting good at it - just good enough to be able to keep doing and enjoying.

And that all happens to people who get into MA, too. Finding sersious students is partly a numbers game. Folks can't know if it's right for them without trying it out, so we want lots of folks to try it out. It's hard for some of us as instructors, because we want to share our passion with every student, and many of them simply aren't going have that passions. And that's actually okay.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can appreciate what you are saying here. I think it is a natural response from a teen. Not to get too crazy with analogies but teens 'eyes are generally bigger than their stomachs'. They often want what they see but do not always understand how to properly evaluate how to get there I think that is our main task as a guide (ie: The one who has been there before). We know what it takes to get there and it's for us to help them find their way. It may not be exactly the same path as the one we took but we can always learn from our own mistakes and perhaps spare others.......or not. That may also be part of the journey. Each guide has their own idea of how to get there.

It's also worth remembering that teenage brains are still incomplete. They literally have not completed the area that helps with long-term planning and consequences. That means most of the time, most teens will be bad at figuring out (or even considering) how much work something big will take, how much it will cost them (opportunity cost), and whether that's an exchange they're interested in. They often have to get into something to figure out this stuff.

Adults are only marginally better at some parts of this, but at least have the capacity to think through the long-term opportunity cost of a commitment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Haha he fears the jump rope. For jump rope it's less impact on the knees than jogging and is similar enough in muscle requirement to replicate it. Cardio or whole body conditioning is known to boost general energy levels. Boxers that do not do enough jump rope have poor conditioning and poor coordination compared to those that do (generally).
A vinegar mix was the drink of choice for Roman soldiers, reported to give them more energy to train and march and march and march. The roman legion was known for their diligent march training. It was usually watered down with some salt added.
Onion I have personal experience with as generally increasing energy and willingness to exert oneself. I have seen studies where it boosts free testosterone as well. One is in rats and one is a guy in another forum that did blood work before and after eating an onion every day for a couple weeks or a month and found higher levels of free testosterone.

The effects of dance music jump rope exercise on pulmonary function and body mass index after music jump rope exercise in overweight adults in 20’s

[Purpose] The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of a dance music jump rope exercise on changes Pulmonary Function and body mass index in female overweight subjects in their 20’s. [Subjects and Methods] The subjects were randomly ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lung function improves moreso with jump rope than cycling.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1170647.pdf

Study shows that male students going through P.E. regularly AND doing jump rope improve in metrics of speed, VO2 max and body composition moreso than those doing the P.E. lessons alone.

Jump Rope Training: Balance and Motor Coordination in Preadolescent Soccer Players

General physical practice and multidimensional exercises are essential elements that allow young athletes to enhance their coordinative traits, balance, and strength and power levels, which are linked to the learning soccer-specific skills. Jumping rope ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Two groups, one doing soccer specific drills, and the other doing jump rope, shows that the jump rope group developed greater coordination and motor control by their improvement in an agility test while the soccer drill group did not improve after the 8 week study.

Jump rope of course increases bone, tendon and muscle strength in the lower body. Cardio improves muscle function and growth.

All in all jump rope is the way to go for cardio, conditioning and general energy and well-being.

So, you've got evidence for the part you decided to mock about at the top - which wasn't at all what I had questions about. I'm not sure the claim of "best" is supported by those studies, but they (and the experience of many folks on here) certainly support it at least being a very good exercise.

Now to the other parts. For those, you refer to anecdote and historical usage. Neither of those come even close to supporting a claim of "best"...nor even really of efficacy. You don't clarify, so all I can go with at this point is supposition, and I suspect that you didn't introduce onions to your diet in a controlled manner (changing nothing else, during a plateau in development) and measure performance before and after. With that, you'd at least have anecdotal evidence to support the claim that onion increases energy, but the potential for a placebo effect would make it the weakest kind of evidence. The historical use of vinegar is simply too confounded by other variables to be more than interesting.

 

[Yokozuna514]

It's also worth remembering that teenage brains are still incomplete. They literally have not completed the area that helps with long-term planning and consequences. That means most of the time, most teens will be bad at figuring out (or even considering) how much work something big will take, how much it will cost them (opportunity cost), and whether that's an exchange they're interested in. They often have to get into something to figure out this stuff.

Adults are only marginally better at some parts of this, but at least have the capacity to think through the long-term opportunity cost of a commitment.

Generally I can agree with the sentiments of your statements. I wouldn't necessarily call teenage brains 'incomplete' or qualify the majority 'bad at figuring out' how much something big will will take. They are less experienced with many things and may tend to use 'trial and error' type of learning which isn't all bad. Sometimes it is better to 'do' and then review results than to 'think' of what 'may' happen. Even as adults our brains may 'lie' to us to save our egos or we may just not know our limits (or how far we can push past them). So yes, I do agree that they have to get into something to figure out stuff but then again so should we as adults. Research is good. Planning is good. Doing is also good, if you have a good guide that can help you find a way to pass your preconceived notions of what you thought you could only do.

Hopefully as adults we have learned to better evaluate which path to take better than we were able to when we were teens but I suppose that depends on how successful we were when we were in our 'trial and error' phase.

 

[Diagen]

It's also worth remembering that teenage brains are still incomplete. They literally have not completed the area that helps with long-term planning and consequences. That means most of the time, most teens will be bad at figuring out (or even considering) how much work something big will take, how much it will cost them (opportunity cost), and whether that's an exchange they're interested in. They often have to get into something to figure out this stuff.

Adults are only marginally better at some parts of this, but at least have the capacity to think through the long-term opportunity cost of a commitment.

This is quack man. Teenagers brains are fine. No one knows the cost/ benefit of MA. The dojo's cost/ benefit is much clearer though. People show up, they get a read for the place, then decide to leave or not. Teenagers might be growing but that has nothing to do with their competence in planning things out -- most teenagers grow up with their day to day and life generally predetermined for them. If your life were predetermined for you I bet you would spend less time planning or an extremely high amount of time planning while resenting your day to day. Either way you show up, get a read, and decide it's not what you want to invest your life into or 5 years or 3 months.
Boxing gyms and such are about getting a level of competence you can use in 3 months, and be good at in 2 years. There's a definite end to it. Try telling someone there's no end to something and whether they want to do it or not: "Hell no!" Give them a definite end-time and they would be more abliging.
It's not a mistake of others that people don't train in MA it's the lack of efficiency and definite effectiveness born from highly pragmatic and rational thinking. It's often the jack-of-all-trades issue. Trying to master ground, standup, punching, kicking, grappling, weapons requires a lot of connection. TMA places don't place enough emphasis on daily physical training though, which makes no sense given it helps build mind-body connection in general, conditioning, recovery, and necessary physical prowess. So the instructors just seem like they have no clue what they're doing. If you step into a TMA gym and everyone is a superb athlete then you would get some seriously dedicated new recruits.

Alternatively boxing is pretty straightforward and intelligent. Maybe you can't deal with a takedown but good athleticism means you can sidestep a charge from 3 - 4 ft no doubt. It's not a complete fighting art or science but they have some specificity that draws people in. Most people don't want to go fight all the time but boxing isn't fighting, it's a sport that has a lot of use for fighters/ fights. Most fights are more like "honorable duels" and people box most of it (BECAUSE BOXING IS A THING and a way of settling things vs "self-defense") or brutal street fights where someone might have a weapon that they'll use when you're not aware the fight has begun (if they're good and fucked up). TMA doesn't teach people to settle something in unfamiliar settings with violence haha. TMA is all a messed up free for all.

At least with MMA you have a consensus and rational debate over what is effective and what isn't. TMA people think they know better and it isn't just aggression or beligerence it's entrenched beliefs they have.

 

[Diagen]

So, you've got evidence for the part you decided to mock about at the top - which wasn't at all what I had questions about. I'm not sure the claim of "best" is supported by those studies, but they (and the experience of many folks on here) certainly support it at least being a very good exercise.

Now to the other parts. For those, you refer to anecdote and historical usage. Neither of those come even close to supporting a claim of "best"...nor even really of efficacy. You don't clarify, so all I can go with at this point is supposition, and I suspect that you didn't introduce onions to your diet in a controlled manner (changing nothing else, during a plateau in development) and measure performance before and after. With that, you'd at least have anecdotal evidence to support the claim that onion increases energy, but the potential for a placebo effect would make it the weakest kind of evidence. The historical use of vinegar is simply too confounded by other variables to be more than interesting.

It was a joke mostly.
Your other point against it being the "best". Okay. Talking of jump rope: the form is uncomplicated and you can measure objective performance easily. The conditioning is better than jogging perhaps, and the knee impact is low. The lightness on one's feet and fact that it's cardio is a great boon to an old guy that complains of a tired body. If he could do 1 minute of jump rope with a good pace and 5 inches in heel vertical I would be surprised but that's great -- now he needs to progress to 5 minutes.

I didn't use anecdote for onion I used a study on rats I wasn't motivated to cite and anecdote of my own and other's experiences. Here's a meta-study:

Testosterone in Males as Enhanced by Onion (Allium Cepa L.)

Testosterone (17β-Hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one) is the main sex hormone in males. Maintaining and enhancing testosterone level in men is an incessant target for many researchers. Examples of such research approaches is to utilize specific types of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It used to be a micro cultural phase (amongst communities online) and still lives on in those that have tried it. Historical account is very good reason haha! Good enough that with anecdote it makes sense. Vinegar is good and it sticks around in health obsessed cultures for a reason. All fermented food is good for you. If you tried it with a bit of motivation instead of a really bad mood from taste or whatever you would see the benefits pretty quickly.

Just try it yourself. It's easy.

Why does everyone want a controlled study. It's food. You can just try it. Your claims of placebo are ridiculous since every person can experience "negative placebo" where you want something to fail so it doesn't work. Double edge sword.

Haha do you guys fear the onion and vinegar too? I think the truth is beginning to surface. One's will or lack thereof is quite informative, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Generally I can agree with the sentiments of your statements. I wouldn't necessarily call teenage brains 'incomplete' or qualify the majority 'bad at figuring out' how much something big will will take. They are less experienced with many things and may tend to use 'trial and error' type of learning which isn't all bad. Sometimes it is better to 'do' and then review results than to 'think' of what 'may' happen. Even as adults our brains may 'lie' to us to save our egos or we may just not know our limits (or how far we can push past them). So yes, I do agree that they have to get into something to figure out stuff but then again so should we as adults. Research is good. Planning is good. Doing is also good, if you have a good guide that can help you find a way to pass your preconceived notions of what you thought you could only do.

Hopefully as adults we have learned to better evaluate which path to take better than we were able to when we were teens but I suppose that depends on how successful we were when we were in our 'trial and error' phase.

My comment about them being incomplete is quite literal. The portion of the brain responsible for (among other things) reasoning through consequence is the last portion to develop. For most males it finishes developing in the mid 20's, and a bit earlier in most females.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is quack man. Teenagers brains are fine.

I never said they weren't "fine". I said they are incomplete. If you have evidence to contradict what we know of brain development (continues to mid-20's in most men), I'd love to see it.