lack of serious martial artists

[J. Pickard]

Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "do krotee", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?

 

[drop bear]

I think you need to create a reason for people to try.

 

[dunc]

Hi
I'm sorry to say that I don't see this at all
In my experience people enjoy a combination of hard, safe training and socialising
Probably there is a way to introduce harder training to folk over time and encourage folk to develop rather than throwing them into the shark tank on day 1 and seeing who survives
And I think there's a need to sync up the culture that one creates as an instructor and the marketing

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think the words serious and effort would have to be defined in order to have a fruitful discussion about this. Otherwise what you consider serious may be living and breathing karate to the point of living in the dojo, drop bear might think it's becoming competition ready, and someone else might think it's training 4 hours a week, but going full throttle all four hours.

I do think that there's a culture aspect though, regardless of the definition. Newer students will take their cue from the older students on how seriously to take it. And how you market the class impacts it as well.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Its probbly best, as drop bear put it, give them a reason to try. Its not like they get any qualifications there, they could be there for more than the fighting part of it. A lot of people dont have fighting ability as the no1 in their checklist, if they do that type of person doesnt tend to do TMA (although that depends on their no2 and what TMA it is)

I will just re enthisise here, they dont get any qualifications from it, probbly go there for fun and to get out for the evening, probbly go there to get fit or stay fit and active, and probbly have no desire or need to attempt to learn how to tear a mans heart out through their mouth. This is also taking it at face value that they are "half arsing it" and not just regulating their energy correctly, and throwing out interprational issues.

You could maybe try and host a competition of some description to give a incentive or sign your school up for one, or convicne who ever has the power to do those. That tends to incentivise people as there is some tangible reward at the end even if its just bragging rights. Although you might want people who half **** it after you have dealt with the overly competitve and 200% each time they do anything crowd.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "do krotee", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?

For starters, know that nearly any hobby (and for most of us it is a hobby) has a high turnover rate in the first few months. Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned. Others find it somehow interferes with some higher priority. Others find it's just not as satisfying as they'd expected. And yes, some just find it's harder than they thought, or that they aren't as able as they thought. Again, that's true of pretty much any new pursuit - most of the folks who start it won't go far. Martial arts is no exception.

That said, there should be folks who stick. If you're not getting the right people walking in the door, something in your marketing isn't working. If you're not marketing, you're just accepting whatever comes in by luck (which was my practice, because mostly the right people were showing up in small numbers without much marketing).

If folks are doing things halfway, look at the group. Is it everyone? If not, push those who respond well to pushing to raise the average effort (most folks respond to group norms, so raising the average will nudge most people). If it is everyone, somehow you've ended up with a culture of half effort, and it'll take a long time to change. If you're wanting ONLY folks who work really hard, you have to accept that means pushing until the rest either change or leave. Which, if you're trying to pay bills (even if it's just for the training space) may have negative consequences.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do think that there's a culture aspect though, regardless of the definition. Newer students will take their cue from the older students on how seriously to take it. And how you market the class impacts it as well.

This is a big factor. Instructors have to look at themselves and how they influence the group. When I get into technical stuff, I tend to talk. A lot. Sometimes way too much. If I do that with new students in the room, I start setting a norm for them that the pace of work in the dojo is slow and kinda talky. (I can get away with it a bit more with students who've been around a while, as they already have the norm that there are periods of intense activity and periods of listening to me flap my gums.) So, with new folks in the room, I have to temper my tendency to explain, and just push to the activity as much as possible.

 

[MadMartigan]

And I think there's a need to sync up the culture that one creates as an instructor and the marketing

This is both the problem and the answer I suspect (something I'm also working on solving for myself). When you become known for having a quality kids program; it's very difficult to get the serious adult crowd to see you as anything but a kids activity. You then end up with the parents of your kid students, who are likely looking for something similar to what they've seen their kid doing.

The serious adult students are all flocking to Muay Thai and BJJ it seems (why not, they're great arts). The trick for us TMA people is building a reputation of real adult oriented classes. How do you do that without the adults in the class already? Still working on that; but I figure we have to grow them from the younger classes and keep them into adulthood. Then one day new serious minded adults will see the benefits and start joining up.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is both the problem and the answer I suspect (something I'm also working on solving for myself). When you become known for having a quality kids program; it's very difficult to get the serious adult crowd to see you as anything but a kids activity. You then end up with the parents of your kid students, who are likely looking for something similar to what they've seen their kid doing.

The serious adult students are all flocking to Muay Thai and BJJ it seems (why not, they're great arts). The trick for us TMA people is building a reputation of real adult oriented classes. How do you do that without the adults in the class already? Still working on that; but I figure we have to grow them from the younger classes and keep them into adulthood. Then one day new serious minded adults will see the benefits and start joining up.

You beat me to it.

I agree with this, I think a problem may be the kids class. The school may simply be seen as a “kids school” where it is a martial-inspired daycare program. Those adults seeking a higher level of training don’t see past that and they look elsewhere for serious training.

I understand the need for the kids classes to pay the bills. But it may handicap the development of all other training.

 

[dunc]

Perhaps that's the case, but again most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train

 

[MadMartigan]

most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train

A very good/fair point.
While there's certainly a level of 'flavor of the month' with BJJ + all the good press it gets from MMA; clearly they're doing something right in many cases.

TMA is also a slower process, and often involves things like uniforms, asian language memorization, and patterns (which the average North American has been taught from MMA commentators is useless). With the current culture of quick results and utilitarianism, it's an uphill battle.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "do krotee", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?

It's probably your marking that is having that effect. I would start there so you can attract the type of people you want.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You beat me to it.

I agree with this, I think a problem may be the kids class. The school may simply be seen as a “kids school” where it is a martial-inspired daycare program. Those adults seeking a higher level of training don’t see past that and they look elsewhere for serious training.

I understand the need for the kids classes to pay the bills. But it may handicap the development of all other training.

I've seen this go both ways, within the same school. The place I trained most of my NGA life always had a kids' program. For a long time, it was a feeder for the adult program, which was pretty energetic (helped partly by the steady, slow stream of already trained teens).

Then the instructor opened things up to younger kids - ages kept going down (from 10, to 8, to 6). About the same time, the adult classes started getting thinner (probably the reason he was opening up to more kids) and less intense. I don't know if the added (and younger) kids classes added to the situation or not, but the school remains softer and slower than I remember it being.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Perhaps that's the case, but again most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train

I think there's a couple of parts to that. First, the art is probably more recognized (by name) than most other MA, among the general public. Secondly, it has a good reputation (mostly well earned). Thirdly, their classes tend to be pretty energetic (rolling is pretty exhausting for new folks, even if they go easy), and this is easy to see when folks look at it. So folks who aren't interested in working aren't very likely to sign up. This makes it easier to keep an energetic norm, which attracts the kind of folks who want that energetic norm.

And BJJ can be a lot of fun, and who doesn't want that?

 

[J. Pickard]

Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.

 

[drop bear]

Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.

I keep mentioning this school because they are a karate school. And have no issues with training hard, having dedicated students or creating capable martial artists.

Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness

So Mabye there is something in that you can draw from.

 

[MetalBoar]

Perhaps that's the case, but again most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train

That may be true but I suspect it depends a lot on how they advertise. I've been looking at schools a lot, having recently moved to a new city and it's been mostly online so I only see what they put on their website. I've got enough options that if the website doesn't present the kind of school I want to train in it doesn't make the list of places I intend to call. There's one BJJ place near me that has a very reputable instructor but his website puts a heavy emphasis on their kids classes and it appears to be their big focus. I'm not going to bother calling them even though they might have a fantastic adults program because they don't present themselves that way.

Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.

When I read this I wonder about your website and other forms of advertising. I've been interested in traditional Okinawan karate for a while and to a lesser degree traditional TKD. Almost all the karate and TKD web sites I visit put a huge focus on their kids classes and the fitness benefits an adult can expect. There's nothing wrong with that but when I see a site like that the feeling I get is that it's the karate equivalent of the boxercise (Get fit! You won't get hit!) places I've seen popping up all over with the addition of after school baby sitting. Since I want to train in a real martial art that doesn't speak to me and I move on to the next school's web page without digging any deeper. It may be that a lot of other people who want to do a real martial art do too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's probably your marking that is having that effect. I would start there so you can attract the type of people you want.

This should read. "It's probably your marketing ...."

 

[hoshin1600]

I think most comments are on point but I will be a little more blunt.
The instructor/ leader sets the pace and the culture of the group. Be it a karate school or in any business. If your group is not developing the desired culture look no further than the leader. While marketing is important its not the cause of poor culture. Incorrect marketing will cause a drop in sales due to a mis- match between what was advertised and what is actually presented.
I would guess there were a few first students and rather than setting the expectations and the culture of hard work the instructor gave in and let things be very laid back and soft, out of fear of losing those few students. This is very common. To set a serious culture you need to screen those first students for the ones that exhibit the desired work ethic and be willing to let all the others hit the pavement.
I would also add that when those serious students did show up, they saw the pace and lack of intensity and turned around and walked.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think most comments are on point but I will be a little more blunt.
The instructor/ leader sets the pace and the culture of the group. Be it a karate school or in any business. If your group is not developing the desired culture look no further than the leader. While marketing is important its not the cause of poor culture. Incorrect marketing will cause a drop in sales due to a mis- match between what was advertised and what is actually presented.
I would guess there were a few first students and rather than setting the expectations and the culture of hard work the instructor gave in and let things be very laid back and soft, out of fear of losing those few students. This is very common. To set a serious culture you need to screen those first students for the ones that exhibit the desired work ethic and be willing to let all the others hit the pavement.
I would also add that when those serious students did show up, they saw the pace and lack of intensity and turned around and walked.

And I'd add to this: remember that the right people (given you're looking for people who stick around and continue to work hard) will be happy to be pushed kinda hard from the beginning. My students hated mountain climbers and burpees and push-ups. They groaned about them nearly every time I called for them. But they did them. Why? Because I hated them, groaned about them, and did them anyway. I did the exercises with them and went harder than anyone else (unless I had a new student I was helping with the exercises).