I find this video to be very interested. Your thought?
Kung Fu in UFC
- Thread starter Kung Fu Wang
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All the techniques highlighted are present in other arts. To the best of my knowledge most of the fighters shown have never trained any form of Kung fu and learned the moves elsewhere.
Headhunter
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Haven't watched the video but the thumbnail is Edson barboza. Well Edson barboza is a Muay Thai fighter not a Kung fu fighter so it's click bait title
The video shows a bunch of techniques performed by Kung Fu practitioners, followed by the same moves applied in the octagon. It shows a lot of fighters besides Barbosa, but the ones I recognize don’t come from CMA background.
At one point they show some Wing Chun movements from the Ip Man movie followed by Jon Jones doing some similar moves. This was a fight right after Jones had done some JKD training with Dan Inosanto, so there was a bit of a legitimate connection there.
In other cases I know exactly where the fighter learned the movement being executed, and it was from karate or capoeira or BJJ. (The BJJ move was actually technically distinct from the Kung Fu method it was being compared to.)
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for starters that double punch was horrible. I use that same punch during sparring and it can't be just thrown out there like that. The range for the double punch like that is actually closer. It's a long fist punch but it's thrown in closer range. It's thrown at a closer range with the expectation of your opponent moving back to get out of the way. If done correct the opponent will actually move back into the power range of that punch. From my understanding of that punch it was never meant for closing the gap or reaching out. Other than that I didn't see anything that I wouldn't see from other fighting systems.
I saw a lot of basic martial arts techniques that would be found across other systems but nothing that I would feel comfortable with calling "Kung Fu"
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
IMO, the double punch is used to twist your opponent's head. You put one hand on his forehead, one head on his chin. You pull his forehead and push his chin. It should be 2 opposite forces. Most of the form just show you how to reach your hands to your opponent's forehead and chin. The twisting (pull/push) motion is not shown.
It can be seen at 0.12, 0.15, 0.17.
Danny T
Senior Master
Human movement is human movement.
Take note of enough fights one can surely find positions and moves to duplicate any particular movement or action.
Take note of enough fights one can surely find positions and moves to duplicate any particular movement or action.
Danny T
Senior Master
Strongly agree with this potential application as well as the concept that "...form just show you how to reach your hands..." (in this application to your opponent's forehead and chin). The twisting (pull/push) motion is not shown"
I believe this concept should be viewed in most form/s. I wonder why, based on other writings and questions you have posted, you don't seem to apply this concept in other aspects of form/s? You seem to have a more literal or specific sense for moves and positions.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #9
I don't like "abstract" and "hidden information". Many long fist (my primary CMA system) guys said that there are many throws hidden in the system. For example, a horse stance downward punch can be a hip throw. IMO, people may try to give the long fist system more credit than it should deserve.
For example, in the following clip, at 0.39 - 0.40, the jumping move is used to pull your opponent's leading leg. If that your application, you should not put all your weight on the back leg, It's not easy to pull your opponent's leg from that "striking tiger" posture.
To assume that to stay in static stance can help your to develop your footwork is just a bit too "abstract" for me.
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Danny T
Senior Master
Hidden? Or students not taught how to function within movement. If hidden it is hidden in plain view.
Your example of a punch potentially being a throw I agree with. It is movement, there are numerous potential applications within a particular movement. I often state; Form, Drills, Application; Application often doesn't look like form or drills. It will always depend on the spatial relationship with the opponent along with timing.
Stance and footwork are two different things.
Stances are fleeting, footwork should almost always be constant.
That's the problem with all of the "this style" vs/used in MMA arguments. There aren't but so many ways to effectively hit someone, choke them, throw them, etc. There are differences in power generation (a few, but limits because power is about getting mass into motion to create energy...), in tactics and strategies -- but, unless you find someone with a third arm, or back-hinged elbows, etc., there just aren't that many ways to use a human body to fight. That's why MMA has pretty much developed a set/subset of techniques and approaches that can be taught outside of any other formal art. You can learn grappling/wrestling/submission holds without getting any belt in BJJ, you can learn kicks and punches without doing Muay Thai or TKD or even lethwei
... In the end, if you train to compete under MMA rules, it doesn't matter what style you're starting from. If you don't have a strong wrestling/grappling base, you'll want a strategy to stay on your feet and out of clinches. If you're not a strong puncher, you might want to try to stay inside and wrestle... but just about any style has tools that can be used in MMA settings.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
This is why I don't train form any more (I have learned more than 50 forms). Today, I only train drills. My solo drills are partner drills without partner. This way, I can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
My approach is:
application -> partner drill -> solo drill
This is different from the WC approach that I learn a form first and then try to figure out how to use information from that form. This way, I can't care less how ancient people might try to hide information. Because I'll make everything crystal clear under the sun.
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This is along the lines I think like. I've seen a couple of other explanations along the same lines.
There aren't any 'hidden' meanings as such, it's not really about a path to enlightenment.
I think it's about efficacy of teaching.
When you're showing a movement, it's easier to stick to one description.
An example, a TKD low block. Taught (and explained in books) as being used to block a front kick. You chamber with your hands crossed near your chest, then one arm goes down to 'block', the other 'reacts' to your hip, done as you slip into a stance.
A possible 'hidden' application - the chamber itself is the block, your 'reaction' hand that's going to your hip, that absorbs and redirects the force - so against a punch, redirect, grab, slip back into stance pulling your opponent off balance then your 'block' hand can actually be doing a kidney strike, or pushing your opponent downwards.
Seeing as this is just about the first block taught, going to detail of it potentially being a combined block/takedown/counter/assist is only going to confuse, but once the student knows the move and it's programmed, they should be able to mentally connect those motions with later techniques and knowing how their opponent reacts to force.
Of course, as time goes on and students become teachers, these applications get 'misplaced' and attain the mystical stature of being hidden moves that only the enlightened know the secrets of...
punisher73
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Used to be the way things were taught when the arts were small and private. Went the martial arts were taught commercially a lot of stuff just wasn't shown or altered in front of people who weren't "worthy" of the information.
punisher73
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Agreed, everyone seems to forget that "MMA" means "Mixed Martial Arts". There is not a single technique in MMA that is not found in another art. The difference is that MMA fighters don't care where they get something from as long as they can make it work.
In the US, MMA is mainly BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Muay Thai (or a combo of this), because that is what is seen in the UFC. If you look at MMA outside of the US, you will see more arts represented and a broader range of techniques.
But, back to the original topic. Yep, there has been techniques from Karate, Kung Fu, TKD, Capoeira, and many other arts. Again, that doesn't really mean much in the scheme of things when people try to point at single techniques that are found in a host of other arts and then try to say that "their art" is effective because some guy in MMA used a technique from it.
Danny T
Senior Master
"...the approach that I learn a form first and then try to figure out how to use information from that form."
This explains a lot to me as to why you seem to have a low approval of wc.
Your wc training appears to have been lacking a lot.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #17
Not only the WC system. All the other CMA systems have this same problem as well. That is, you learn a form first. you then try to figure out the application from the form.
- When I was 7, a monk taught me a Yang Taiji form as my 1st CMA style. One time I got into a fight. I didn't know how to use my Taiji in fighting. I lose confidence in it.
- When I was 11, my brother in law taught me 2 Lo Han system forms. One day I got into a fight, I didn't know how to use information from that form. I complained to him. He stopped teaching me any more forms. He forced me to train "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years.
I do have low approval in many CMA training methods. Why can't all CMA systems start from
- 1 step 3 punches,
- 1 step 2 punches,
- 1 step 1 punch,
- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 steps 1 punch,
- ...?
The step can include forward, backward, side way, ... . The punch can include jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hammer fist, back fist, side punch, ...
Last weekend, an old student of mine came to visit me. We shared our current training method.
- I like to start from the entering strategy and then link to the finish strategy. For example, if I start from "entering strategy 1", I can use it to set up finish strategy 1, finish strategy 2, ...
- My student likes to start from the finish strategy and then link back to the entering strategy. For example, if his goal is "finish strategy 1", he can use enter strategy 1, entering strategy 2, ... to set it up.
In AI, both forward search and backward search are valid. Of course the bi-directional search will be the best. Not only WC, most of the CMA systems that I know are not using
- forward search,
- backward search,
- bi-directional search.
If you train wrestling, Judo, boxing, MT, since those styles don't have forms, their approaches will be much closer to AI and easier to understand.
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Danny T
Senior Master
Hmm... Strange to me.
I was taught footwork almost from day 1.
Form...Yes.
Drill... yes, from day 1.
I teach a day 1 student:
Basic Stance YJKYM and Jing Ma both leads.
Punching from both leads and YJKYM
Pak Sao Drills Standing and stepping forward
Pak Jong Drill Standing and stepping forward
Pak-Jong-Pak Da Standing and stepping forward
After that the next 2 months is SLT first set a couple of times then footwork and punching drills. Light sparring with a senior student based on the punching drills we worked.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #19
I don't share the same training experience as you do. I don't know either you had good luck or I had bad luck.
- In the movie '"Iron and Silk", during the 1st day lesson, the teacher only taught him how to hold fists on the waist and turn his head to the left.
- After I had learned all 3 WC forms from Jimmy Kao, he still hadn't shown me any footwork yet.
- During the 1st day of my high school long fist training, my teacher taught me only how to put left hand in front of my chest (face down) and right hand in front of my belly (face up) as the following clip at 0.00.
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I’ve only had a bit of CMA training, so I don’t know what the most typical experience is like. I do know that I’ve read a lot of stories where the teacher makes a new student spend a long time proving his dedication before sharing “the good stuff” in an art. Maybe this made sense in generations past where a student who learned the “secrets” might use them against his instructor or run off to set himself up as a competitor.
My approach as a teacher is different. I don’t know how much time I will have with a student, so I try to give them something they can use as quickly as possible. I want a student’s time with me to be worthwhile whether they spend one day with me or ten years.
