Kung fu in MMA Wins

[Flying Crane]

You have evidence from before Bruce Lee days kung fu already have these kicks. I am not a historian, maybe you can educate me. I just know TKD is recognized and respected for these kicks, in teaching and Olympics.

Like I said, I've seen a lot of kung fu demo and movies in hong kong, I have friends that were very into it that time and showed my their kung fu. Those kicks were NOT known until Bruce Lee.

Jeezuz, do you actually believe what you are writing

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, your style invent those too!!!!

Doubtless my style did not invent it. But neither did TKD. They were invented in various places, by various people, independently, in history.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Didn't TKD get the side kick from Karate?

ha ha ha.. don't say that too loud. Wasn't there a guy on here that was anti-Japan and anti-Japanese? If you say that TKD got the side kick from Karate 3 times, he may show up. Opps. Now it's been said twice lol.

 

[Flying Crane]

How much CMA have you trained?

CMA has as much take down defense as Judo, wrestling, and BJJ have.

As far as I know, BJJ is not interested in take down defense training.

Be hasn't trained any, except for some charlatan who gave him bad iron palm training and now he is bitter to all Chinese martial arts.

 

[Alan0354]

Didn't TKD get the side kick from Karate?

They are different. Watch this video.

I learn something too watching. Now I can see why TKD can kick the highest which is pretty much the signature of TKD.....High kicks. But his kicks are from the back leg, very few do that anymore. Most of us do hop in front leg side kick. It's harder because you have less turn to pivot, but if you do it right, it's faster and just as powerful. Look at Bruce Lee.

1) You can see the explanation, TKD chamber the knee, lift it really high and straight, then pivot( throw your hip around) and turn to kick out. We in TKD stress a lot in picking the knee up high and straight, you don't know what kick is coming until much later because the knee is picked up straight for front, side and round kick. Notice UFC mostly use TKD side kick that pick up the knee and turn and kick?

2) Karate looks to not picking up the knee, more like the turn back kick we do in TKD where the knee at most point to the side, more like pointing down. Watch 10:30 on in the video. There is very little pivot, You can NOT kick high with that, but it is easier for people that is NOT flexible.

3) I don't like Muy Thai side kick as much, it uses the ball of the foot, it is not as still, the ankle is not as strong as the heel and can give a little when hitting the target and reduce the power. The same reason I am actually practice front kick with the heel instead of the ball of the foot aka Chinese style. I find a lot of times when I front kick the bag with the ball of the foot, the ankle gives a little and reduce the power. But if I kick with the heel, it doesn't give and you can hear the snap on the bag. The down side is you lost a few inches of height kicking with the heel.

But I have a lot of respect towards Muy Thai, To me, it's kick boxing + elbow and knee. Back in the days, they have full contact competition between all styles in Asia. Muy Thai just whooped the butt of kung fu. that's why there's a lot of Muy Thai influence in UFC/MMA.

Pivot is very important in TKD, all the power generates from the pivot. I bet TKD kick the hardest because it uses the whole body. AND of cause, kick the highest.

Yes, these three are known to have their own way of doing side kick and are very different.



Is there any kung fu side kick video so I can learn?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Doubtless my style did not invent it. But neither did TKD. They were invented in various places, by various people, independently, in history.

Example of this. Pictures showing kicks. Pre- MMA, Pre- Bruce Lee. Various people, independently in history.

Savate.

I really like this one. nice staff work. Same difficulties that I see today, but one of the guys was able to land some good techniques.

Awesome footage.

Same here another good find. Some of the techniques should look familiar to many of us.

 

[Alan0354]

Ha, maybe I should try practicing karate side kick. It's the TKD pivoting that injured my back and I had to give up side kick completely all these years. Karate side kick doesn't require much pivoting, kicking with knee pointing down is much easier on the back. Might not be as good, but it's better than nothing. And sure a hell of a lot easier kick than TKD.

Try picking the knee high up straight, then pivot and turn to kick, it's very harsh on the back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yet not enough to stop an actual takedown.

CMA may not have ground game. But CMA has all the takedown defense. Unfortunately one has to be a Chinese wrestler in order to learn it.

10 basic take down defense principles are:

吸(XI) - Sticking drop
摟(LOU) - Outer hook
勾(GOU) - Upper hook
判(PAN) - Trap
削(XIAO) - Sickle hooking
蹲(DUN) - Knee bending
跳(TIAO) - Hop
磨(MO) - Spin
轟(HONG) - Herd
摇(YAO) - Shake

Here is an example of the "吸(XI) - Sticking drop" followed by "轟(HONG) - Herd".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Karate side kick doesn't require much pivoting, kicking with knee pointing down is much easier on the back. Might not be as good, but it's better than nothing. And sure a hell of a lot easier kick than TKD.

Kung fu teaches the side kick this way as well with the knee pointing down. It's easier on the hip as the hip turns over to a more natural position. I will be the first to admit that my flexibility only allows my side kicks to travel rib height. I have no interest is kicking higher than the ribs I'm trying to break. But that was when I had better flexibility than now. Now my side kicks are going to land thigh and below. lol. That's until I get my flexibility back

 

[Alan0354]

Kung fu teaches the side kick this way as well with the knee pointing down. It's easier on the hip as the hip turns over to a more natural position. I will be the first to admit that my flexibility only allows my side kicks to travel rib height. I have no interest is kicking higher than the ribs I'm trying to break. But that was when I had better flexibility than now. Now my side kicks are going to land thigh and below. lol. That's until I get my flexibility back

You are much better than me now, I practice round kick to the knee, I still pulled my back Sunday. I could feel when I pull my back. Damn!!! I might be better off learning Karate kicks right from the beginning, I might not have a bad back like now. TKD is very bad on the back, might look good, but how long can your back last.

You read about why Bruce Lee die? I watch the tv program: Autopsy: Last moment of Bruce Lee. The doctor had a high suspicion of him abusing Cortisone injection into his spine. In the 70s, it's not very well researched, now, you cannot have Cortisone injection that often, have to have a waiting period in between. Lee was administering himself, he might have OD on that and triggered by some pain killer or something. There is a price to pay to kick that high and that hard.

I talked a lot about TKD, that doesn't mean I think it's the best, it's just is, that I spent almost 3 years working very hard on it. If I were to do it again, it's not going to be TKD.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway. One lesson to take home is try to avoid this style of hook or jab if you are engaging in leg kicks.

I have been injured doing precisely that and walking in to a round kick.

 

[Alan0354]

Now, it is important to make myself very clear. This thread is about UFC kick. All my comments are on effectiveness of winning, NOT any long term effect on a person. It's all about winning. People might win and stay up for a little while and fade away. You don't know how the health of the person, whether he/she can have a healthy life, or having a lot of pain, disability and all the ill effect from the training and competitions.

For us normal people that have no intention to step into the ring or go all out, a milder form of MA might be better. One that you can practice the rest of your life might be better than the best for beating people and then you fade with injuries. I am sure any MA is helpful for self defense, I just might be better off learning something that doesn't ruin my back and can still practicing at my age instead of working very hard for 3 years and got injured and can never go back.

So the two things are totally different. What I am talking very strong here is for fighting to the top, even if you last a year or less. Nothing to do with the long term health.......Which I might be better off knowing this in the 80s!!!

Now, my exercise is more on boxing type, kicking mainly front kicks, Wing Chun step front kick and round kick to the leg..............If my back is in a good mood!!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Like I said, I've seen a lot of kung fu demo and movies in hong kong, I have friends that were very into it that time and showed my their kung fu. Those kicks were NOT known until Bruce Lee.

If your CMA experience is limited in Hong Kong, I can understand. The southern fist and northern leg are well known by all Chinese. Also since there is no Chinese wrestling school in HK, I can understand why you made the other comment as well.

I just want to state that both side kick and anti-take down all exist in CMA.

 

[Alan0354]

I am surprised Joe Rogan practice Tae Kwon Do also. Here is his demo on turn back side kick( spin back kick to me). You can see in 2:20 he demo how Tae Kwon Do side kick is done using pivoting with the hip to generate power.

It's the pivoting that makes the TKD kicks so powerful and distinct. Round kick is the same.

One thing off the subject, those bags are so soft!!! Very similar to those in my gym, it's like punching into air.

 

[Hanzou]

CMA may not have ground game. But CMA has all the takedown defense. Unfortunately one has to be a Chinese wrestler in order to learn it.

The point is that you're not a complete grappler without a ground game. With BJJ being available in China, there's zero reason for CMA to not have a ground game at this point except for adhering to outmoded traditions and stylistic ego.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are much better than me now, I practice round kick to the knee, I still pulled my back Sunday. I could feel when I pull my back. Damn!!!

It's about using the kick that works for you. Like you stated below

Now, my exercise is more on boxing type, kicking mainly front kicks, Wing Chun step front kick and round kick to the leg..............If my back is in a good mood!!!

As a person who injures his back often doing non-martial arts stuff. I know how you feel about injuring your back. It takes me 6 months recovery when I screw up my back.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Cool. Where are the traditional Kung Fu exponents in MMA?

I couldn't tell you. I don't keep up with Ufc fights And up coming fighters. I may catch a fight weeks later on in passing. When I watch one I tend to pay more attention to what techniques are being used than who is fighting. The only reason I clicked play on the video I posted was to see what technique was used.

I'm not into the fights like I used to be. I'm getting old because I feel "all the greats are gone." Maybe I'll get back to it in the future. But for now the Ufc Fights are pretty much reference points. The beatings they take are beatings that I don't have to take in my interest in gaining fight knowledge. I don't have mentally visualize scenarios all the time. But when I do I have some realistic examples of movement and response to factor in

 

[Steve]

I think what happened to Ryan Hall is especially telling. He couldn’t get fights because Dana hated his sport Bjj- based ground fighting style, and fighters hated dealing with his leg locking techniques.

Worked though.

 

[Steve]

the lack of ground fighting pretty much murders it in the crib in terms of crossover potential.

No different than Muay Thai, where we see considerable crossover. I'm not talking about mapping it over directly. Only that the striking and takedowns in San Shou are well developed and trained in a practical manner with a lot of competitive support.

 

[Hanzou]

I couldn't tell you. I don't keep up with Ufc fights And up coming fighters. I may catch a fight weeks later on in passing. When I watch one I tend to pay more attention to what techniques are being used than who is fighting. The only reason I clicked play on the video I posted was to see what technique was used.

I'm not into the fights like I used to be. I'm getting old because I feel "all the greats are gone." Maybe I'll get back to it in the future. But for now the Ufc Fights are pretty much reference points. The beatings they take are beatings that I don't have to take in my interest in gaining fight knowledge. I don't have mentally visualize scenarios all the time. But when I do I have some realistic examples of movement and response to factor in

A simple "There aren't any" would suffice. This is even the case with One Championship, which is based in East Asia.