Muay Thai sparring partner goes Kung Fu

JowGaWolf

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I found another Tony. The Muay Thai guy that I spar with started throwing my own kung fu back at me. I caught him with the first technique here after the bow.. Jab, backfist. I really wish I was recording it because the timing and control of that was perfect.. It's always satisfynig to perfectly nail the timing .I guess next week I'll get to see that technique from the receiving end. My goal is to land all of the technqiues. on him, but I want to see if I can doing against Muay Thai, but unfortunately I think he has new interest in his kung fu as he has had some light bulb moments and now he's going to try them out.. He hasn't used Wing Chun yet so maybe this week will be the week.
 
From 0.23 - 0.30 in that clip, he stays in horse stance and moves his arms. I don't like the training that freeze the body and move the arms only. If we talk about "some training can build up bad habit", this is one of those.

What's your opinion on that?
Instead of my opinion I'll share how I train that technique in the for and the benefits that I belive that I'm getting.

When I train forms I try to focus on the purpose of the technique. When I train that specific tech in horse I understand that the technique is not stand in horse but to do jab- vertical back fist combo or escape. Standing in horse does a lot of things for me

It helps strengthen my tendons and muscles. It helps me to become aware of small balance shifts as I do thr technique and it puts my body in a position where I have to learn how to drive power to that technique. If I could not move my legs then I would still need to be able do drive power to thst technique.

Even though the technique has 3 applications I only focus on one application. Offense, defense, counter. Attack, evade grab, counter grab are all the same motion, but not the same energy.

The static practice allows me to focus on the functional parts of the technique for striking. Things like how to drive the power using complex motion are easier to do when it's simplied.

I think it works because everyone who I show that technique has a difficult time with the motion. I always find myself telling them to drill that part of the form.

Drill it enough times in the form and you'll naturally begin to feel how the energy moves into the strike.

I think trying to develop the power and understanding of this technique can't be done in sparring. Sparring helps people apply what they know. If you can't drive power outside of sparring then it won't be there in sparring. Just like the punch combo that you told us to try. There's no way I can learn that in sparring.

Even with @Tony Dismukes, if he's still interested in the big long fist strikes then I will pick parts from the form for him to train those parts outside of sparring so that he can get used to the weight shifts and how the energy moves through the technique.

Forms and static drills help build familiarity with the base motion of a technique. But it's important to understand functional motion.

I havent fully tested this out yet, but I think the functional parts of kata and forms are the parts that move. If you are in a static stance the the parts that don't move do not have application

When kata holds the chamber for more than 1 second then the chamber is not the technique being trained. The parts that don't move are either conditioning or helping yo build understanding of how the enflows into the technique.

This lines up with one of the beginner techniques in Jow Ga. In the form the legs don't move. I tried to apply it in sparring the same way and I got punched in the face. I learned the footwork through trial and error and I was able to do the technique without problem.

If this is true then it may be the same for ksta.
 
I found another Tony. The Muay Thai guy that I spar with started throwing my own kung fu back at me. I caught him with the first technique here after the bow.. Jab, backfist. I really wish I was recording it because the timing and control of that was perfect.. It's always satisfynig to perfectly nail the timing .I guess next week I'll get to see that technique from the receiving end. My goal is to land all of the technqiues. on him, but I want to see if I can doing against Muay Thai, but unfortunately I think he has new interest in his kung fu as he has had some light bulb moments and now he's going to try them out.. He hasn't used Wing Chun yet so maybe this week will be the week.
I think this guy moves pretty good. I like that form.
 
From 0.23 - 0.30 in that clip, he stays in horse stance and moves his arms. I don't like the training that freeze the body and move the arms only. If we talk about "some training can build up bad habit", this is one of those.

What's your opinion on that?
Its just one form, I think I see bad habits from hitting heavy bag too much too. People who hit the bag all the time end up leaning into the bag and depend on that for stability rather than keeping their structure. You can get bad habits from nearly anything.
 
Its just one form, I think I see bad habits from hitting heavy bag too much too. People who hit the bag all the time end up leaning into the bag and depend on that for stability rather than keeping their structure. You can get bad habits from nearly anything.
The ironic thing about forms is thst people can do the forms a million times and never have any of the techniques show up in fighting. I posted a video of Jow Ga vs Wing Chun and you see nothing of this form in his sparring. Sei ping is the beginner form for Jow Ga. It should be the first techniques students should learn to apply.

My guess is that the teacher will an earful about that student didn't show any Jow Ga. Especially after the MMA vs Kung fu drama.
 
This lines up with one of the beginner techniques in Jow Ga. In the form the legs don't move. I tried to apply it in sparring the same way and I got punched in the face. I learned the footwork through trial and error and I was able to do the technique without problem.
Power come from

- bottom -> up.
- back -> front.

How can you train the correct power generation if you freeze the body in horse stance and only move your arms?

How can you train

- hand coordinate with foot.
- elbow coordinate with knee.
- shoulder coordinate with hip.

If you just stay in horse stance and do your arms move?

This may be the major difference between northern CMA and southern CMA. I don't believe you can find "multiple punches in horse stance" in northern CMA. In northern CMA, the hand and foot are coordinated. If you don't move your feet, your hand has nothing to coordinate with.

When I was a beginner, my teacher trained us to spar by 1 person play offense and 1 person play defense. The person who plays defense can only block, dodge but cannot attack back. Since that day, any technique without using footwork or body dodging method always bother me.

In this video, he punches in horse stance. But it's only 1 punch. There are no multiple punches in 1 horse stance. At 0.45 - 0.48 and 0.51 - 0.53, he does 4 moves without moving his legs. But his stance changes 4 times (1 for each move). In other words, he does not stay in 1 solid stance and does 4 hand moves.

 
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The ironic thing about forms is thst people can do the forms a million times and never have any of the techniques show up in fighting. I posted a video of Jow Ga vs Wing Chun and you see nothing of this form in his sparring. Sei ping is the beginner form for Jow Ga. It should be the first techniques students should learn to apply.

My guess is that the teacher will an earful about that student didn't show any Jow Ga. Especially after the MMA vs Kung fu drama.
My teacher never taught any forms for at least the first whole year. He wasnt a big believer in forms training, especially for beginners. I only learned 8 for the first many years. Oddly enough, my Sigung knew over 100 various forms. My Sifu used to say that My Sigung had forgotten more about martial arts than my Sifu ever learned.
 
How can you train the correct power generation if you freeze the body in horse stance and only move your arms?
Because power connections are multiple parts. This connection is dropping power it moves back forward then down.

You can feel this movement when you are in horse but you will miss the movement if done in sparring if you don't know how to connect the power. You'll know when you get it correct because back fist should be as powerful a your straight pinch..

It also includes collapsing power as well. I just did it while sitting in the chair at my cubicle at work. The compressing power really comes out since sitting prevents me from dropping my weight.

When this is done dynamically I don't easily feel the connection the same way because it blends and move quickly. I usually just feel the dropping. People try this without drilling the technique in horse of think they are using the back fist like a jab.

It may look like a jabbing backfist but it's not. The jab motion is the wrong motion.
 
Power come from

- bottom -> up.
- back -> front.

How can you train the correct power generation if you freeze the body in horse stance and only move your arms?

How can you train

- hand coordinate with foot.
- elbow coordinate with knee.
- shoulder coordinate with hip.

If you just stay in horse stance and do your arms move?

This may be the major difference between northern CMA and southern CMA. I don't believe you can find "multiple punches in horse stance" in northern CMA. In northern CMA, the hand and foot are coordinated. If you don't move your feet, your hand has nothing to coordinate with.

When I was a beginner, my teacher trained us to spar by 1 person play offense and 1 person play defense. The person who plays defense can only block, dodge but cannot attack back. Since that day, any technique without using footwork or body dodging method always bother me.

In this video, he punches in horse stance. But it's only 1 punch. There are no multiple punches in 1 horse stance. At 0.45 - 0.48 and 0.51 - 0.53, he does 4 moves without moving his legs. But his stance changes 4 times (1 for each move). In other words, he does not stay in 1 solid stance and does 4 hand moves.

I agree with you to some extent. Bottom moves the top, back moves the front, inside moves the outside, etc. People who dont learn the coordination never learn the transportation. Its a process that takes time, the amount of time that takes depends on many factors.
 
From 0.23 - 0.30 in that clip, he stays in horse stance and moves his arms. I don't like the training that freeze the body and move the arms only.
We don't move the body because it teaches how to drive power. I think this is the only way to learn this technique.

@Tony Dismukes has tried this technique he may remember what it feels like when he tried it for the first time.
 
From 0.23 - 0.30 in that clip, he stays in horse stance and moves his arms. I don't like the training that freeze the body and move the arms only. If we talk about "some training can build up bad habit", this is one of those.

What's your opinion on that?
This training will only develop good habit if you train it with the purpose of using it. If you try to train it with movement in the legs and foot work then you will develop bad habits. If anything this technique shows why learning correct application is important and why focusing on use is more important than just copying movement.
 
We don't move the body because it teaches how to drive power. I think this is the only way to learn this technique.
I don't understand. If you don't move the body, you can only generate power from your arm (which violate the basic principle that all power come from your legs).

I had the same concern when I learned WC the first form. My WC instructor's explanation still cannot convince me even today.

All my life, I try to reach to the level that I can punch with my arms behind my back.

In the following clip, you cannot find even 1 move that he "freeze the body and only punch with arm".

 
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I don't understand. If you don't move the body, you can only generate power from your arm (which violate the basic principle that all power come from your legs).
For that technique the the body moves but the feet do not. It utilizes sinking to drive the power. The sinking can be felt when the technique is done correctly because it starts from the arm.

I can prove this by sitting on my sofa. When done correctly you can see my body bounce up and down from how I drive the power. I can do the same technique and drive the power forward and my body won't bounce. Is the same result I sit with my legs straight or bent. Even if I don't collapse my upper torso there will still be energy that is transferred down ward. I can also do the technique like most Jow Ga students do and my body won't bounce in the chair.

All power comes from the egs except when using gravity. When you use gravity you don't shoot your legs downward. Instead you allow the legs to give so that you can drop your weight. When the drop of the Weight is timed with the downward force of a vertical backfist then it is like using the backfist to throw weight downward.

The best visualization would be to take a slam ball (weighted ball) and to throw that ball downward without letting go. Your body will resist the pull of the Wright bring thrown downward. But in Jow Ga we allow the downward weight of the back fist to collapse the legs.
 
I had the same concern when I learned WC the first form. My WC instructor's explanation still cannot convince me even today.
The instructor should have showed you directso your body can feel the weight. This is what I do for students. They can easily tell the difference between downdraft pressure and forward pressure.
 
For that technique the the body moves but the feet do not. It utilizes sinking to drive the power.
In your video, at 0.20, he sinks into horse stance and then punch.


In this video, at 0.03, he sinks into horse stance and punches at the same time. Even he doesn't move his feet when he does more punches, he changes from horse stance into bow-arrow stance (he doesn't stay in horse stance to do the rest of punches).

IMO, there must be a good reason that both form creators created both forms differently.

Most CMA systems use the 2nd method instead - try to avoid only move the upper body without moving the low body.

 
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Arm only power generation. Note that the upper torso doesn't collapse

Sinking motion exaggerated

Both are examples of sinking. Watch when he does the exercise the "incorrect way" his knees still show sinking power (dropping weight)

The best example of what I'm describing, with out me making a video. Legs aren't moving. On the second throw the collapsing force causes the body to drop lower on the wall. What her hips and you'll see the slight drop


This guy actually rises when he throws the ball downward. If you look close at the cushion you will see it rise. You'll also not that he keeps his back completely straight. he doesn't collapse it.

This is power generated from the top, which sinks into the root. I think the static training works because you are forced to seek power for the strike without borrowing power from the legs.
 

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