Did a little training with Tony Dismukes

Oily Dragon

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Stagnation here means like trying to turn a wheel by pulling on both sides in opposite directions.

This is the inverse of the Taijitu, if you want to really get philosophizing.
 

marvin8

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Are you sure it means "double weight"? In the sense you are using it?

I can argue he really meant "equal pressure" based on the hanzi.
No, I am using it in a different sense.

I agree that he may mean one becomes double weighted through "equal pressure" or stagnation.

Even using "double weight" here's the context. Note that he never mentions what weight. Replace "double weight" with a different translation, "equal pressure" and it suddenly makes sense.

"瘣颱撮頧西蔭. 瘝. 皛.
瘣颱撮頠頛. 瘝. 皛.
Be exactly like a turning wheel. As you follow, thwart his expectations while remaining rooted. Double-weight and you will stagnate."


My contribution is I gave physical combat examples (rather than internal) where opponents can "no longer move their body freely" and timingwhether he agrees or not.
 
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JowGaWolf

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My contribution is I gave physical combat examples (rather than internal) where opponents can "no longer move their body freely" and timingwhether he agrees or not
I don't understand this reply. I think Oily dragon was talking about the interpretation of "Double Weighted"

It seems like you are moving the definition around. I've seen it explained 4 different ways. And there seems to be no clarity of the interpretation as you see it beyond. your "Double Weighted = no longer move their body freely"

You made a comment that I missed because my opponent wasn't "Double weighted" this I explained why I missed and that it had nothing to do with doubled Weighted. Even if he was would have still intentionally missed.

Then you talked about people getting hit because they are doubled Weighted. But the truth is that people get hit while moving as well.

The closet I've seen to Double Weighted is what KFW showed and Gerry gave an desctiption that is also grappling related. The one time I felt like I could move freely was wrestling. The only time I felt that way in striking is while I was in the air. Other than that their is always opportunity to move the body even if the feet don't move.

Based on what I've seen so far this is a grappling concept.
 
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Oily Dragon

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I don't understand this reply. I think Oily dragon was talking about the interpretation of "Double Weighted"

It seems like you are moving the definition around. I've seen it explained 4 different ways. And there seems to be no clarity of the interpretation as you see it beyond. your "Double Weighted = no longer move their body freely"

You made a comment that I missed because my opponent wasn't "Double weighted" this I explained why I missed and that it had nothing to do with doubled Weighted. Even if he was would have still intentionally missed.

Then you talked about people getting hit because they are doubled Weighted. But the truth is that people get hit while moving as well.

The closet I've seen to Double Weighted is what KFW showed and Gerry gave an desctiption that is also grappling related. The one time I felt like I could move freely was wrestling. The only time I felt that way in striking is while I was in the air. Other than that their is always opportunity to move the body even if the feet don't move.

Based on what I've seen so far this is a grappling concept.
Every sweep, throw, and roll in grappling works on a circular concept. Hence the wheel metaphor of Tai Chi.

That's where force meets force (yang-yang) and surrender meets surrender (yin-yin) don't make sense. Again, can't turn a wheel either of those ways. These are counter to good wrestling skills. Wrestling skills is about obtaining leverage, and that happens at what the Tai Chi people call yang-yin or yin-yang.

And if you want to get interesting, Wing Chun and Hung (Jow) Ga have different concepts of "mun wu", gates and doors. Hung Ga considers the waist/groin gate to be the Yin (front) Yang (back) door (see: Lam Chun Fai). I believe it's because that's where the rotational (wheel) energy of the body is found.

This is fundamental to the physics of Judo and Kano discussed throws using the same ideas, but modernized.

I'm just not sure "double weight" captures the broader idea of manipulating weight. The latter is a far more nuanced thing than "double" whatever. It's more a matter of timing than anything else, something KFW pointed out with his comment about the Goldilocks zone of weighted feet when sweeping. You'll know it when you feel it.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I don't understand this reply. I think Oily dragon was talking about the interpretation of "Double Weighted"

It seems like you are moving the definition around. I've seen it explained 4 different ways. And there seems to be no clarity of the interpretation as you see it beyond. your "Double Weighted = no longer move their body freely"

You made a comment that I missed because my opponent wasn't "Double weighted" this I explained why I missed and that it had nothing to do with doubled Weighted. Even if he was would have still intentionally missed.

Then you talked about people getting hit because they are doubled Weighted. But the truth is that people get hit while moving as well.

The closet I've seen to Double Weighted is what KFW showed and Gerry gave an desctiption that is also grappling related. The one time I felt like I could move freely was wrestling. The only time I felt that way in striking is while I was in the air. Other than that their is always opportunity to move the body even if the feet don't move.

Based on what I've seen so far this is a grappling concept.
In striking catching people while in transition may be similar to what is being described as "double weighted" but it has nothing to do with being weighted and more to do with being committed to a movement to the extent that for a short period of time nothing can be done. For example. Kicking under the lead jab. Once that lead jab is committed you are unable to do anything until the jab stops. The more committed a jab is the less the person can avoid the kick under.

The principle is simple. If you are 100% Committed to one move then you will not be able to make any other move. Jumping Straight up is 100% commitment to moving upward. Once you do this, you won't be able to move in any other direction.

I like Brawlers for this very reason because everything with them is 100% Committed in terms of their strikes. The "doubled weighted" sounds like an exploitation of balance. Where the body shifts weight to retain desired balance and then the opponent will change balance while the body is trying to reach a balance that no longer exists.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Every sweep, throw, and roll in grappling works on a circular concept. Hence the wheel metaphor of Tai Chi.

That's where force meets force (yang-yang) and surrender meets surrender (yin-yin) don't make sense. Again, can't turn a wheel either of those ways. These are counter to good wrestling skills. Wrestling skills is about obtaining leverage, and that happens at what the Tai Chi people call yang-yin or yin-yang.

And if you want to get interesting, Wing Chun and Hung (Jow) Ga have different concepts of "mun wu", gates and doors. Hung Ga considers the waist/groin gate to be the Yin (front) Yang (back) door (see: Lam Chun Fai). I believe it's because that's where the rotational (wheel) energy of the body is found.

This is fundamental to the physics of Judo and Kano discussed throws using the same ideas, but modernized.

I'm just not sure "double weight" captures the broader idea of manipulating weight. The latter is a far more nuanced thing than "double" whatever. It's more a matter of timing than anything else, something KFW pointed out with his comment about the Goldilocks zone of weighted feet when sweeping. You'll know it when you feel it.
Looks like I have a better understanding as you explain it. I just delete my comment about Jow Ga circular movement and how it uses the follow up punch to deal with that issue. I deleted itas you were typing your message, because I felt that it was telling too much which is rare for me to feel like that. I guess because talking how to do a technique is different than talking about how do defeat it.
 
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JowGaWolf

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something KFW pointed out with his comment about the Goldilocks zone of weighted feet when sweeping. You'll know it when you feel it
Sweep feet one while pushing upper body the other way. Is like turning a wheel. Depending on the perspective of the wheel and the direction of the turn, the top moves right the bottom moves left. The sides are similar. The right side moves down while the left side moves up.

This makes sense to me.
 

marvin8

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No, I am using it in a different sense.

I agree that he may mean one becomes double weighted through "equal pressure" or stagnation.


My contribution is I gave physical combat examples (rather than internal) where opponents can "no longer move their body freely" and timingwhether he agrees or not.

I don't understand this reply. I think Oily dragon was talking about the interpretation of "Double Weighted"

It seems like you are moving the definition around. I've seen it explained 4 different ways. And there seems to be no clarity of the interpretation as you see it beyond. your "Double Weighted = no longer move their body freely"
No, I am not "moving the definition around." In every definition of "double weight" there is a common denominator, the inability to change. That is the definition I used. However, the difference may be how the practitioner and opponent get there. The term "double weight" has been attributed to Wang Zong Yue and his "Taijiquan Treatise."

You made a comment that I missed because my opponent wasn't "Double weighted" this I explained why I missed and that it had nothing to do with doubled Weighted. Even if he was would have still intentionally missed.
I know, I acknowledged that, accept it and I thanked both you and Tony for giving details on your meeting. What doesn't change is your opponent's weight shifts.

Then you talked about people getting hit because they are doubled Weighted.

But the truth is that people get hit while moving as well.
Not only did I talk, I posted video clips (including the Choy Lay Fut video) of people being hit or swept, when they're double weighted.

The truth is people get hit when they are double weighted and do not get hit when they are not double weighted. That's why it's an important concept.

The closet I've seen to Double Weighted is what KFW showed and Gerry gave an desctiption that is also grappling related. The one time I felt like I could move freely was wrestling. The only time I felt that way in striking is while I was in the air. Other than that their is always opportunity to move the body even if the feet don't move.

Based on what I've seen so far this is a grappling concept.
The common denominator in all 3 of our definitions is the inability to change.

No, it's not limited to grappling. I showed and tired to explain that.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The truth is people get hit when they are double weighted and do not get hit when they are not double weighted. That's why it's an important concept
So every time someone gets hit, it's because the are doubled Weighted? And it's impossible to hit people who aren't doubled Weighted? This is how my brain is processing that statement.

I don't have issue with the first part but I have issue with the second of not getting hit when they are not doubled weighted.
 
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marvin8

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So every time someone gets hit, it's because the are doubled Weighted?
Yes, they are unable to change (e.g., out of position). So, they get hit.

And it's impossible to hit people who aren't doubled Weighted?
It's impossible to hit someone that changes, before getting hit.

The fact (physics) is:

People get hit when they cannot change, before getting hit.

People don't get hit when they can change, before getting hit.

I agree with the "metaphor soup" comment, which is why I prefer to use actual fight clips to discuss double weight. In the end, MAs includes fighting.

 

marvin8

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In striking catching people while in transition may be similar to what is being described as "double weighted" but it has nothing to do with being weighted and more to do with being committed to a movement to the extent that for a short period of time nothing can be done.
(Oh, I missed this post.) No, it does. Again, it has to do with where an opponent's weight is and timing. I explained the difference in control and timing in yours and KFW's, parrying the lead hand when opponent's weight is on the front foot, then attacking2 actions vs others attacking before that with 1 action. (I can go back to examples and explain further.)

I gave a detailed definition of timing, which includes reaction time. I gave examples (in this thread and others) of CMA 101 door knocking (asking/luring), which creates opportunity and more reaction time.

For example. Kicking under the lead jab. Once that lead jab is committed you are unable to do anything until the jab stops. The more committed a jab is the less the person can avoid the kick under.

The principle is simple. If you are 100% Committed to one move then you will not be able to make any other move. Jumping Straight up is 100% commitment to moving upward. Once you do this, you won't be able to move in any other direction.

I like Brawlers for this very reason because everything with them is 100% Committed in terms of their strikes. The "doubled weighted" sounds like an exploitation of balance. Where the body shifts weight to retain desired balance and then the opponent will change balance while the body is trying to reach a balance that no longer exists.

Yes. However, there are ways to lure and control the jab, jumping and brawling giving more reaction time and other counters to them. Tai chi push hands exercises luring, attaching, extending, following and attacking an opponent's weight shifts.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Tai chi push hands exercises luring, attaching, extending, following and attacking an opponent's weight shifts
Transitions are weight shifts. I can't think of a transition that doesn't require a weight shift.
 

marvin8

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Transitions are weight shifts. I can't think of a transition that doesn't require a weight shift.
There is a difference in weight transitions between...

1. clearing a punch when the opponent plants their front foot, transfers their weight to the back foot, then you throw a wheel punch.

2. as your opponent transfers their weight from the back foot to the front foot, you throw a wheel punch before the opponent plants their front foot.

2. has a higher percentage of landing, because you are timing your wheel punch to land, when the opponent is double weighted (unable to change). 1. has a higher percentage of missing, because the opponent can transfer their weight from the front foot to the back foot (change) avoiding the punch, which sets the mechanics up for a counter attack (pull-counter). Only one example of 2.:

Diakiese's opponent's majority of weight has not transferred to the front foot, allowing him to get KOd.

BX7Ztx7.jpg
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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When your opponent shifts weight from his

- front leg to his back leg, if you sweep his back leg,
- back leg to his front leg, if you sweep his front leg,

he will fall.



 

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