Kukkiwon usage of honorifics and grade

[MSUTKD]

Well, then no reason to keep hiding your greatness from us, please, in the name of altruism and by all means, bring your fantastic self and your superior students to our events so we can all mix in and learn from your wonderful ability. You have the invite and the chance to change the Taekwondo world. Come teach us, that would be exciting, I know I am always in search of such greatness and most others are too.

I do not think Twin is trying to be mean, he has a bad taste in his mouth about the WTF/Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

 

[MSUTKD]

ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.

simple question.

would you have passed any of them for BLACK BELT?

Actually, I would not. I agree that they are not very good but to lump them into, "kukkiwon black belts suck", is not right.

 

[mastercole]

Twin,

I have seen videos that you have posted and I could say the same thing. I have also seen a black belt test at the kukkiwon and although it was about 300 kids the skill was average; every now and then I saw an amazing one. The high school teams in Korean are very skilled and stunning to see as are collegiate ones.

Just like our country most just do this as something fun and that is okay.

Master Southwick does not look at anyone and state "that's crap", though he would have ground to stand on if he did. As a USA National Poomsae Team member, takes his own time, travels around the USA and helps people improve there skills, encouraging them to become better, by word and then by demonstration. He also does it by example, officially representing the USA in difficult and highly scrutinized international level competition against the world best Taekwondo practitioners.

He actually does something to improve Taekwondo, regardless of what he dislikes.

 

[Dirty Dog]

ron, they were, lets say this again, BLACKBELT candidates.

simple question.

would you have passed any of them for BLACK BELT?

cuz i wouldnt. I would pass them for BLUE, much less black.


And the vids i posted years ago? those were all BEGINNERS, with less than a year of training. And thier power, balance and spirit FAR exceeded what those BLACKBELT candidates showed. And my students at the level you saw them? i wouldnt have passed THEM for blue either.

Since "rank x" has different meanings to different people, could you perhaps post videos of your current students, so we can see what standard they're held to?
It's all well and good to criticise others, but it's far more useful to show, by specific example, how your way is better.

 

[Twin Fist]

still trying to make it personal aint ya?

*sigh*

Well, then no reason to keep hiding your greatness from us, please, in the name of altruism and by all means, bring your fantastic self and your superior students to our events so we can all mix in and learn from your wonderful ability. You have the invite and the chance to change the Taekwondo world. Come teach us, that would be exciting, I know I am always in search of such greatness and most others are too.

 

[MSUTKD]

Master Southwick does not look at anyone and state "that's crap", though he would have ground to stand on if he did. As a USA National Poomsae Team member, takes his own time, travels around the USA and helps people improve there skills, encouraging them to become better, by word and then by demonstration. He also does it by example, officially representing the USA in difficult and highly scrutinized international level competition against the world best Taekwondo practitioners.

He actually does something to improve Taekwondo, regardless of what he dislikes.

Thank you Master Cole but I like Twins blunt rants, lol. I am by no means good at poomsae yet. There are many that I consider much better, like poomsaeguy and miles, but I will take the comment with respect. I wish I was so refined that I could not say, “That is crap”, as the truth is I often do - but too myself, lol. I want to represent my teacher, my country and my art in a positive way so as to inspire others to achieve, like the ones before me.

 

[Twin Fist]

and i didnt say KKW blackbelts suck, every org will have great, crappy, and lots in between

I have thought the KKW doesnt care about ensuring standards of performance and quality, and rushing people to BB after one year of training tends to support that thought.

Actually, I would not. I agree that they are not very good but to lump them into, "kukkiwon black belts suck", is not right.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

This is about what I'd expect from students going to class twice a week and practicing some outside of class after a year of training in the entirety of the geub level material.

Degree of work put in and potential are very important in grading/promoting a student. However, in my school, you cannot earn your bb in less then 3 years. If the regulations were different, and you could earn it in a year, I would agree, these students look like those who went to class 2x a week for about a year (which equates to our 5th gup). , but crammed all gup level material into that year of training.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I am curious as to why they chose to use the term, 'master' given the connotations that it has to English speakers, particularly in the martial arts. Not criticizing it, but I am curious. Certainly, they had to know that doing so would potentially raise more than a few eyebrows.

Also, the term, master, in the sense that they are using it (same as mister or miss) is actually masculine, with mistress being the feminine term. Though I can see where they may wish to use master in a gender neutral way, given that mistress would raise more eyebrows than master.

I am not critical; it is the honorific that the organzition is associating with first through third (?) dan practitioners.

Given that they are trying to convey mister/miss/mrs., why not simply use those designations?

I wonder that myself.. . True it does not matter.. . But since Sabum has, in the past, been compared to "Master," I can see where the confusion sets in.

 

[MSUTKD]

The great thing about the kukkiwon is that they do not tell you to do anything; they present the information as guidelines. My teacher does not teach exactly from the kukkiwon curriculum, he adds many of his own ideas. Before the poomsae standards were really being pushed we did things a bit different, not much but different. When I began training for the 2006 Poomsae Team Trials I had to change and my teacher was fine with that. If fact he told me to make everybody in our group change so that we could continue to unify the standards. He knew that taekwondo had been changed so much from what it was intended to be that this was a step back to what it should be. The poomsae standards are a great thing for taekwondo and I have seen in the last few years a vast improvement in students skills and understanding because of it.

 

[MSUTKD]

I wonder that myself.. . True it does not matter.. . But since Sabum has, in the past, been compared to "Master," I can see where the confusion sets in.

If one has a western understanding then maybe but if you understand the language and culture sabum does not mean “Master” as we would say it. It literally means, “Teacher of teachers”. Look at it from that idea and it might make more sense.

 

[Twin Fist]

I would love to, but my school is closed for the time being. I went back to college full time for my nursing degree. I am unsure bout trying to teach again or just be a student.

But i know how to teach, i know what is good and what isnt good.

power

focus

balance

when it isnt there, anyone should be able to see it, and tell the truth

forget being nice, forget being polite, lets be HONEST

the people in that clip honestly were not good. They were not IMO even ready to test for intermediate rank, much less BB. That isnt their fault, it is the fault of their teacher.

Since "rank x" has different meanings to different people, could you perhaps post videos of your current students, so we can see what standard they're held to?
It's all well and good to criticise others, but it's far more useful to show, by specific example, how your way is better.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would love to, but my school is closed for the time being. I went back to college full time for my nursing degree. I am unsure bout trying to teach again or just be a student.

But i know how to teach, i know what is good and what isnt good.

power

focus

balance

when it isnt there, anyone should be able to see it, and tell the truth

forget being nice, forget being polite, lets be HONEST

the people in that clip honestly were not good. They were not IMO even ready to test for intermediate rank, much less BB. That isnt their fault, it is the fault of their teacher.

Understandable. So is there anything, then, that prevents you from posting videos of your own performance? That would give us at least some idea of your standards, by comparing your performance to that of people of similar rank within our own systems.

Personally, I think it is entirely possible to be honest while remaining both nice and polite.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

If one has a western understanding then maybe but if you understand the language and culture sabum does not mean “Master” as we would say it. It literally means, “Teacher of teachers”. Look at it from that idea and it might make more sense.

I totally agree. However, it is commonly the general public's perception, that "Master" is a high rank, often equivalent of a rank that "Sabum" is given. In our association, we use Jo Kyo Nim for 1st dans, Boo Sah Bum Nim for 2nd and 3rd, and Sah Bum Nim for 4th dan and up. However, this is where it gets confusing, since there is really only one Sah Bum Nim at each school (the school owner).

Personally, I do not fancy the terms "Master" or "Grandmaster," but I use them where there are supposed to be (I was taught that 5th dan= association master, 6th dan and up= Master, however, I know that others use the term at different ranks). I consider myself a teacher and instructor, and after 26 years of practice, I have taught those who have went on to become teachers themselves, so I think Sah Bum is an appropriate honorific, but I still don't feel that comfortable with being called "Master Rush," even though that's what the standard is and that's how many of my students refer to me.

 

[Twin Fist]

it might be possible for you to be nice AND honest at the same time.

it isnt easy for me, because i am not a nice person. In all reality, i am pretty much an ***.

I have to TRY to be nice. Most of the time i dont bother, to tell the truth. No point since sooner or later I offend everyone....

here was my last test, 3 years ago, doing Sae Jong.

I would rate my performance of this form as unacceptable. my lost my balance for a sec, and I wasnt as familiar with the form as i should have been. Only worked on it for about 4 weeks (Actually a funny story behind that. Ask me about it sometime.) it was not a 4th dan BB level performance

So you see, i apply those same admittedly harsh standards to myself as well.

 

[MSUTKD]

Well Twin,

I will not comment on the performance but not many others would actually post a video
of themselves doing anything, I give you respect!

 

[Twin Fist]

its ok Ron, i know i looked like crap on that test. Like I said, it was unacceptable by my own standards.

but thats the thing, i dont use myself as the standard of "accpetable"

i want my students, and everyone's students to be better than ME, i suck. I am old and fat.

I want, no i expect people to be FAR better than me

 

[Dirty Dog]

it might be possible for you to be nice AND honest at the same time.

it isnt easy for me, because i am not a nice person. In all reality, i am pretty much an ***.

That makes me wonder why you'd choose to pursue a nursing degree. That is not, generally, a profession for those who have a difficult time being nice.

I have to TRY to be nice. Most of the time i dont bother, to tell the truth. No point since sooner or later I offend everyone....

And you don't see any point in trying to change this?

here was my last test, 3 years ago, doing Sae Jong.

I would rate my performance of this form as unacceptable. my lost my balance for a sec, and I wasnt as familiar with the form as i should have been. Only worked on it for about 4 weeks (Actually a funny story behind that. Ask me about it sometime.) it was not a 4th dan BB level performance

So you see, i apply those same admittedly harsh standards to myself as well.

Did your instructors consider your performance acceptable? If so, did you accept a promotion that you felt you did not deserve?

And thank you for posting the video.

 

[MSUTKD]

I want, no i expect people to be FAR better than me

Well, I would say that makes you a good teacher. It is okay because I suck too but I am trying to get better everyday.

 

[mastercole]

still trying to make it personal aint ya?

*sigh*

No I am looking for a quality teachers and you claim to be one. Don't take it personal.