T
Ty K. Doe
Guest
Sorry I moved this to the TKD forum.
Administrators may delete this.
Administrators may delete this.
OP
OP
Ty K. Doe
Guest
I was looking over the kukkiwon web site and read the history of tkd. The style of tkd that I practice is the Jhoon Rhee system which was influenced by the late General Choi Hong Hi. Which means it is essentially ITF in nature without the politics.
From my experience here in the mid-west most people who practice tkd are essentially in the same boat as me (basically ITF in nature). Which means we all acknowledge the Gen. as the founder of tkd.
I'm concerned that the lengthy history lesson at:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkbook/tkhistory.asp?div=2
refuses to even mention the Gen. at all. Has the kukkiwon or the WTF created a mass conspiracey to totally eliminate General Choi and his involvment of tkd completely from history?
My concern is, now that General Choi has passed, that in merely a few years from now any remembrance of General Choi, or even his involvment will be labeled a fabrication of those in the ITF.
Does anyone else feel concerned about that, or am I making a bigger deal out of nothing.
From my experience here in the mid-west most people who practice tkd are essentially in the same boat as me (basically ITF in nature). Which means we all acknowledge the Gen. as the founder of tkd.
I'm concerned that the lengthy history lesson at:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkbook/tkhistory.asp?div=2
refuses to even mention the Gen. at all. Has the kukkiwon or the WTF created a mass conspiracey to totally eliminate General Choi and his involvment of tkd completely from history?
My concern is, now that General Choi has passed, that in merely a few years from now any remembrance of General Choi, or even his involvment will be labeled a fabrication of those in the ITF.
Does anyone else feel concerned about that, or am I making a bigger deal out of nothing.
cali_tkdbruin
Master of Arts
Politics aside, I'm a WTF practitioner, and I can't speak for anyone else from my side of the fence, however, I would like to say that I have respect for General Choi and for what he did to try to advance our Martial Art. Hopefully sometime soon the ITF and WTF will be able to put their differences aside and come together without any further animosity... :asian:
cali_tkdbruin
Master of Arts
Politics aside, I'm a WTF practitioner, and I can't speak for anyone else from my side of the fence, however, I would like to say that I have respect for General Choi and for what he did to try to advance our Martial Art.
Hopefully sometime soon the ITF and WTF will be able to put their differences aside and come together without any further animosity... :asian:
Hopefully sometime soon the ITF and WTF will be able to put their differences aside and come together without any further animosity... :asian:
Zepp
Master of Arts
Choi wasn't the sole founder of TKD, but there's no denying that he was very important in the art's recent history.
From the little bit of research I've done on TKD history, I understand that the General was on rather poor terms with many of his peers when he stepped down as president of the Korean TKD Association (which later expanded into the WTF). Since some of his political enemies are still around, I think it may be quite some time before Kukkiwon gives him the acknowledgement he deserves.
(I take it you've read the other thread on this forum about General Choi?)
ITF folks shouldn't be too offended by this. I train with the World TKD Association. Our Grandmaster, Duk Sung Son, who is also still around, was formerly the head of the Chung Do Kwan, and even awarded Choi several black belt ranks, but he gets the least acknowledgement of anyone.
Politics suck.
From the little bit of research I've done on TKD history, I understand that the General was on rather poor terms with many of his peers when he stepped down as president of the Korean TKD Association (which later expanded into the WTF). Since some of his political enemies are still around, I think it may be quite some time before Kukkiwon gives him the acknowledgement he deserves.
(I take it you've read the other thread on this forum about General Choi?)
ITF folks shouldn't be too offended by this. I train with the World TKD Association. Our Grandmaster, Duk Sung Son, who is also still around, was formerly the head of the Chung Do Kwan, and even awarded Choi several black belt ranks, but he gets the least acknowledgement of anyone.
Politics suck.
OP
OP
Ty K. Doe
Guest
This is where I get kinda get confused by history. I know that in Korea there were several kwans that combined under the umbrella of tkd. Which leads me to believe that after the name tkd was instituted, several different variations of tkd may have exhisted. However, wasn't it the General's knowledge of taekyon and shotokan that was taught to those with him in prison, and the same combination of styles (Oh Do Kwan) taught to his troops in the millitary?
I once read an interview of the General's where he stated that he brought the teachers of the other kwans into his house to agree on a standardized name. When the others did not want to use the name tae kwon do (after taekyon) he pretty muched forced them to do so.
So maybe he's not the sole founder, but wouldn't he be considered the sole instigator of creating the art?
OP
OP
Ty K. Doe
Guest
This may just be a conspiracy theory of mine but...
Now that there's an international court system in place, I can see one side or the other try to coin the term Tae Kwon Do, and anyone who is not following the system will be forbidden to use the name (by an international court order). Especially now that General Choi is gone and because there is so much animosity.
I do find it ironic though that there is so much negativity between the two federations that it kinda goes against the tenents of tkd (not by the practicioners but the political heads).
Zepp
Master of Arts
At the risk of getting into an argument over semantics, I'd have to say no. Howabout if we say he was the driving force behind the unification of the kwans and the internationalization of Tae Kwon Do?
I think you're you're right about the name though Ty. Choi did have to pretty much force it on everyone. I think the fight about the name was just because everyone else wanted the credit of naming the art.
I believe he also trained under several of the other kwans before founding his own Oh Do Kwon. I know that he headed the Chung Do Kwan for a while too, after Mr. Son left.
You really think the WTF and ITF would sue each other over the name "Tae Kwon Do?" That'd be a sad day for martial arts indeed.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Choi and his assistant Smithers, er, Tae Hi Nam were both students of Chung Do Kwan under Won Kuk Lee. After GM Lee left Korea, many of his students, Choi included, went on to found their own schools. The name "Tae Kwon Do" was definitely coined from within the Chung Do Kwan, and was far from universally accepted because of that. The other Kwan leaders felt excluded. Anyway, Choi says he coined it, while Son Duk Sung claims he did. Only those two would know for sure.
Gen. Choi was, to be sure, a major force as far as unifying the kwans per orders from the Korean government, and was certainly instrumental in promoting it worldwide. But I think he has tried to take credit for something he didn't create. What we call Tae Kwon Do is actually an umbrella art of different styles created by merging the kwans and their approaches to unarmed fighting. This is why you have Japanese influences, Chinese influences, Korean kicking etc.
Gen. Choi was, to be sure, a major force as far as unifying the kwans per orders from the Korean government, and was certainly instrumental in promoting it worldwide. But I think he has tried to take credit for something he didn't create. What we call Tae Kwon Do is actually an umbrella art of different styles created by merging the kwans and their approaches to unarmed fighting. This is why you have Japanese influences, Chinese influences, Korean kicking etc.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
My TKD is through Jhoon Rhee's line, so naturally I hold him in higher respect than General Choi. Certainly Choi influenced Rhee and talked him into adopting the Chang Hon forms, so I have to give a nod to the late General for that, but our day-to-day practice never tilted towards his world. My studio and those in our family were never members of the ITF and we never wanted to be.
I can certainly understand that, but I was just talking about how he or if he is remembered.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Well, he's not remembered for much in my lineage other than creating the Chang Hon forms, 'going North Korean', and 'inventing' and promulgating sine wave movement. I don't think of the General at all in my daily practice. Not trying to dishonor the man's memory, but he's not at the head of the TKD pantheon from my perspective at all. I can certainly understand why those who practice the ITF style might feel differently.
He's sort of like Gichin Funakoshi to me: a figure from the past who probably influenced what I practice today at least peripherally, but not someone I really put at the head of MY table.
He's sort of like Gichin Funakoshi to me: a figure from the past who probably influenced what I practice today at least peripherally, but not someone I really put at the head of MY table.
I can understand that as well
Well, I don't think about him in a daily basis, certainly - but I am occasionally reminded of seminars I took with Gen. Choi, or hear stories from my seniors, who went to more seminars than I did, and knew him better.
History is written through the lens of the person(s) writing it - only in recent times, as multiple viewpoints on events have become available, has a less subjective rendering of history been possible, and even with that, different people who see the same event will write different things. Only by combining as many perspectives as possible can you come close to the truth - and even then, "truth" is subjective.
History is written through the lens of the person(s) writing it - only in recent times, as multiple viewpoints on events have become available, has a less subjective rendering of history been possible, and even with that, different people who see the same event will write different things. Only by combining as many perspectives as possible can you come close to the truth - and even then, "truth" is subjective.
You are absolutely right Kacey
Miles
Senior Master
The history section at the Kukkiwon website mentions none of the Kwan founders, several of whom reportedly had more martial arts experience than did Gen. Choi.
It is not a conspiracy but rather an acknowledgment that Taekwondo as practiced in Korea, was a group effort.
Miles
Considering all the promotion that Gen. Choi did for Tae Kwon Do, he had surprisingly little martial arts experience. Other than a black belt in Shotokan (and even this is debatable depending on your sources), he had not much experience. This is one reason why I don't have as much respect for him.
Contrast this with several Kwan Founders (Lee, Yoon, Hwang etc.) who had many years of experience. Many of them undoubtably resented being arm-twisted by a guy like Choi who didn't have the same level of experience they did.
Contrast this with several Kwan Founders (Lee, Yoon, Hwang etc.) who had many years of experience. Many of them undoubtably resented being arm-twisted by a guy like Choi who didn't have the same level of experience they did.
So... only those with greater experience can promote an art? What do you think would have happened without that level of promotion? I'm being totally serious here - had those practitioners who were "arm-twisted by a guy like Choi who didn't have the same level of experience they did" not been "arm-twisted", would TKD be where it is today? Perhaps it would; perhaps it wouldn't - but competition and promotion can have a significant effect on any activity and how wide-spread it becomes. So he had less experience... so what? Does that make the amount of the time and effort he put into promoting TKD less meaningful?
Like many of his contemporaries, Gen. Choi was a Korean patriot - he devoted his early life to fighting for the freedom of his country, a dream that has only been partially recognized. He devoted his later life to promoting a particular aspect of his national culture. So he had less formal training, less experience, than the others you mention. So what? How does that minimize what he actually did? Why does his promotion of TKD deserve less respect because he spread what he knew instead of waiting for someone else who knew more to promote TKD? How is that bad? I truly do not understand why his "lack of experience" should denigrate the time and effort he put into promotion.
