Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

[kelly keltner]

Thank you professor

I must say you are one of the very few people on these martial arts disscusion forums that I truly have respect for. I at least know if I ask you a question. I will get an answer. Whether I lke the answer or not, I know it will at least be objective. You are truly a genlteman and a credit to your art.


kelly

 

[GAB]

Hello Kell,

We were talking the other day and you were asking me about the early Katas?

I told you where to go? Or did I? I also am going to make a few phone calls and seek a little bit on my own, I still have some contacts, I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for posting and putting that information up for the Gathering.

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you professor

I must say you are one of the very few people on these martial arts disscusion forums that I truly have respect for. I at least know if I ask you a question. I will get an answer. Whether I lke the answer or not, I know it will at least be objective. You are truly a genlteman and a credit to your art.


kelly

Kelly, Thank you for the kind words. As I promised, I spoke to Professor Abregana about an hour ago and voiced him your concerns. He will be fair and balanced in his investigation. He is a man of integrity. There is no hidden agenda what-so-ever. If you have any questions that I haven't answered please e-mail me at my private address and I will put you in touch with him. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[Karazenpo]

I received an amicable private e-amil asking me if I mean't the Kosho people were the ones who acted like they had a superior art. No, not the Kosho people and there is no reason to elaborate beyond that-no need to start a flame war.

 

[Karazenpo]

Let me also say this in all due respect to the Kosho people. I am not at liberty to give details but as of this time I feel Mitose's lineage is most definitely Okinawan through Nabura Tanamaha of the Motobu lineage. Members of his family may be indeed connected to martial arts in Japan as stated by Shihan Mike Brown but from what I understand Mitose was born and brought up in Hawaii and only left Hawaii for the mainland United States in 1953. I now don't believe he was ever in Japan but I will stand corrected if someone can show verification otherwise. Let me also say this. Despite the myths and his criminal background, I still have no problem accepting him as the founder of our Hawaiian-derived Kenpo. He may not have been the 21st descendant but possibly the 1st. It is my opinion Kosho Ryu may have been Mitose's own eclectic blend of Okinawan Kenpo and whatever Jiu Jitsui he picked up from Professor Henry S. Okazaki's Danzan Ryu that I think we all can confirm he had exposure to. Some feel that Mutzu's Okinawan Kenpo contained the Tori-te (grappling art) so prodominate in Mitose's techniques and suggest this system may also have influenced his kenpo along with Motobu's art.

 

[GAB]

Hi Professor:
Flame-war or any other kind of problem I certainly don't need.
I was suspended once on this board and I am not going there again.

I have been expunged from another board for getting into it pretty hot
an heavy regarding "sticking up" or "shuting up" I won't go there again either.
why, because they won't let me back.

My "Mom" used to say "don't burn your bridges" SON! I did not burn the bridge, I napalmed it. "No Mas" for me.

Mom did not want me to go into the Marine Corps either. The nice thing about my Mom, is even when she was right and I did not listen, she still loved
me and gave me comfort when I needed it, I still talk to her when I need some guidence..Now it is generally after the fact.. Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi Professor:

I am writing and you are posting, I am posting and you are writing , anyway.

If you will look on my Profile, you will find that I started in Kajukenbo, that is because I went into a studio in North Hollywood and met a really good man and he was my first Sifu.

I could really tell you some of the reasons I ended up there, but it is to much like the present as far as the board I was expunged from. History, I love it!

I learned some of the basics and a few more things as I recall. I never was more then a white belt in Sifu John Leonings Dojo but it was enough.
I went on to LAPD, (67) you were pretty much doing and learning what they taught or else. Mr. Robert Koga good man and instructor I can tell you that..

With what I learned in the Marine Corps and from Sifu John I was on the right path for protecting myself in the streets of LA, before I became a PO.
My first Instructor of Kajukenbo was a great guy and very high ranked, when in the 60s the rest were, not! (Enough SON!) Yes Mom. I still listen, this time anyhow. Regards, Gary

PS. The Truth, we need the truth.. True... I have seen the Kanji for that
one, it is great!! Either way the man is a friggen genius...Who?
Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, thats who..G

 

[John Bishop]

OK

The original names of the Kajukenbo kata's were "Pinion's", not "Pinan's". They were also called "Monkey Dances" because even back then in the 40-50s most kenpo people knew that they had a connection to "Choki Motobu" who had the nick name "Saru" (english translation= monkey).
They were created mostly by Adriano and Joe Emperado. Although there are some movements barrowed from Okinawan kata's, they are for the most part a Kajukenbo invention. The name "Pinion" is simply the way the Filipino Hawaiian's pronounced "Pinan".

As to the A&E documentary, it is a 5 hour, 5 part documentary that is very much still in production. Kenpo is only one of the 5 parts. Mr. Juchnik has not been talked to yet because we are trying to talk to the old timers while they are still with us. A very important one is now 92 years old, and was a classmate of Mitose's when they trained in Honolulu, Hawaii as teenagers. There is photographic and documentary proof of this, including government documents from the State of Hawaii. Another interviewee is Dr. Arthur Keave, who is extremely old, and was once thought to have died or left Hawaii. He for the most part, did most of the writing for James Mitose. Bobby Lowe, Paul Yamaguichi, and others are also still with us. Since these men are still availiable, and Mr. Juchnik did not meet Mitose untill around 1977, it is much more important at this time to get this information from first hand witnesses.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you Professor

The reason behind my questions about the Kajukenbo Pinons is this. The Kajukenbo version of pinon shodan is almost the same as the neko buto kata we do in kosho ryu.
The neko buto was taught to Bruce Juchnik by Robert Trias who learned them from James Mitose. If this is true then it suggests a link between the two katas and raises questions about statements being made about Mitose only teaching and knowing Nai Han Chi.
Also in accordance with a post John Bishop made in a seperate thread there was a lot of cross training going on back then so Mitose going to another school to train in an Okinawan style is not unplausible. Especially if Mitose and Motobu new each other in Japan.
Then again if Mitose made the whole Kosho Ryu thing up. The more power to him. When GoJu ryu came to Hawaii in 1928 it was approximatly 14 years old. Parker created his system starting in the fiftees. chinese kempo, kajukenbo. None of these systems are so ancient that they can really claim a leg up on any one else.

My only concern about the A&E special is that it seems that nobody has contacted Hanshi Juchnik. I am concerned because I know he has some of the documentation pertaining to Mitose in his time in Hawaii. Plus the fact he was one of Mitose's last students. He also has hours of video tape interviews with people who were around when Mitose was in Hawaii. Has anyone from A&E contacted Mike Brown and tried to get some of his information. Lastly, I have tried to get John Bishop to contact Hanshi Juchnik concerening information Hanshi Juchnik has that Mr. Bishop wanted to see. Yet when given the oppurtunity Mr. Bishop declined. So my Question is why aren't these people being sought out. I'm not saying that the Bruce Juchnik/Kosho version of the truth is what the A&E special should be about. If a police officer is investigating a crime and he hears that some one might have valuble info regarding that crime. Doesn't he have a responsibility to follow that lead up. Not doing so might be considered lack of due dilligence on his part. It could lead to the crime not being solved. Or worse yet, the wrong person being convicted.
So what I'm saying is this; Jaime Abregana and John Bishop in conjuction with A&E have a lead that needs to be followed up. If they do not follow it up then they are doing a great disservice to the martial arts community as a whole.

kelly

Hi Kelly, where did you hear that the Neko Buto kata was taught to Robert Trias by James Mitose? I have corresponded with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley and she did confirm a relationship of her father with Mitose back in those early years. However, Shihan Mike Brown told me that it was Robert Trias who taught Mitose Naihanchi but now it seems it also could have been Nabura Tanamaha. Man, it gets confusing, doesn't it? Just when you think you have the answer, another plausible alternative comes up.

 

[Karazenpo]

OK

The original names of the Kajukenbo kata's were "Pinion's", not "Pinan's". They were also called "Monkey Dances" because even back then in the 40-50s most kenpo people knew that they had a connection to "Choki Motobu" who had the nick name "Saru" (english translation= monkey).
They were created mostly by Adriano and Joe Emperado. Although there are some movements barrowed from Okinawan kata's, they are for the most part a Kajukenbo invention. The name "Pinion" is simply the way the Filipino Hawaiian's pronounced "Pinan".

As to the A&E documentary, it is a 5 hour, 5 part documentary that is very much still in production. Kenpo is only one of the 5 parts. Mr. Juchnik has not been talked to yet because we are trying to talk to the old timers while they are still with us. A very important one is now 92 years old, and was a classmate of Mitose's when they trained in Honolulu, Hawaii as teenagers. There is photographic and documentary proof of this, including government documents from the State of Hawaii. Another interviewee is Dr. Arthur Keave, who is extremely old, and was once thought to have died or left Hawaii. He for the most part, did most of the writing for James Mitose. Bobby Lowe, Paul Yamaguichi, and others are also still with us. Since these men are still availiable, and Mr. Juchnik did not meet Mitose untill around 1977, it is much more important at this time to get this information from first hand witnesses.

Thanks, Sigung John. I learn something new every day. I knew of Motobu's nickname of 'Saru' (monkey) because he moved like a monkey but I never made the connection of the 'Monkey Dances' with Motobu and yet, shame on me, the connection is so obvious. I always wondered why they were also referred to as monkey dances, I should have seen it!! Now, I don't know about Okinawan Neko Buko kata and Palama set #1 (Pinion) being the same ( I know Palama set #1 but not Neko Buko) but I do know that our fourth kata in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo was most definitely inspired by Okinawan Pinan #1 (Heian #2). Also, I believe I have seen the opening sequence of our #1 kata (kick-left/punch-right, Kick-right/punch-left) in an Okinawan karate forms book by Patrick McCarthy years ago. Now, put this together with Mitose and Nahanchi, the more I look at it, the more I see our Okinawan connection!

 

[kelly keltner]

Ah now I see and I agree with you whole heartedly. I know Paul Yamaguichi, but I did not know Arthur Keave was still alive. I did not know that. I'll stay off your back for a little while. It's important that you talk to them. If kosho ryu is a Mitose invention I am perfecectly willing to concede that point if it is proven. My spelling of the word pinan I apologize for, bottom line is you know what I meant. Thanks for the spelling lesson though.

kelly

 

[kelly keltner]

It is my understanding that Trias new Mitose. Hanshi Juchnik sought out Trias for Information about Mitose. Trias and Juchnik maintained close ties until his death.
Some of the katas we do come from O'sensei Trias. At least one, the Neko Buto kata supposedly came from Mitose.

kelly

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

In most of the arts, the various Katas handed down, were tweaked to fit a certain path and application within ones own Martial Art. Martial Art is not static, it is not rigid, therefore it cannot be tied down to a specific.

I thought of this today while doing drills and the person who was doing them with me said don't break away from the drill, this is what you are being taught now and to learn. (we were hitting the heavy bag perfoming a drill specific).

I said OK, went back to the drill a minute then went into a free form attack, for twenty seconds, then went back to the drill. I was questioned why I was doing that when I need to do the drill.

I said I was using the drill in the free form attack and would use the drill only if I was facing another individual, but I can't just do drills.

The FMA is so good for this, not the stuck in the Kata routine. Like JKD.
It is great if you are getting burned out in your own system, I recommend it highly...At least it works for me, Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi all,

In most of the arts, the various Katas handed down, were tweaked to fit a certain path and application within ones own Martial Art. Martial Art is not static, it is not rigid, therefore it cannot be tied down to a specific.

I thought of this today while doing drills and the person who was doing them with me said don't break away from the drill, this is what you are being taught now and to learn. (we were hitting the heavy bag perfoming a drill specific).

I said OK, went back to the drill a minute then went into a free form attack, for twenty seconds, then went back to the drill. I was questioned why I was doing that when I need to do the drill.

I said I was using the drill in the free form attack and would use the drill only if I was facing another individual, but I can't just do drills.

The FMA is so good for this, not the stuck in the Kata routine. Like JKD.
It is great if you are getting burned out in your own system, I recommend it highly...At least it works for me, Regards, Gary

Gary, I think you're right on. Pre-arranged techniques do not work on the streets, per se. Their concepts do (ideas) and they do develop speed, power and accuracy. Free style is the way! Example: An attacker is assaulting you with a bat. The pre-arranged technique, per se, is not all that important. What is important is the idea or concept of in order to disarm, you have to step inside of the arc or the eye of the hurricane, in other words, you have to be close enough to kiss him on the cheek to defeat him. Then it's simply close combat fighting. I've said this over and over.......too many martial artists are getting caught up to this false sense of security that is developed in the dojo! Anyone can beat up and UKE, please don't forget that and let's get back to reality fighting. Strong basics and a fundemental understanding of fighting concepts and priniciples. That's it! Nothing more and nothing less! Again, just analyize all those 'caught on tape' fights over the last 10 years. Fighting is not that complicated, it's simple but due to commericalism and ego too many 'masters' want you to think that it involves all these intricate and mystiful techniques! After all, you need them to make rank, don't you? Well, just ask them when was the last time they can show DOCUMENTATION of the last time they can give a verification of a real life situation. Every time I ask on a board, I get ignored but I don't get upset over it, I take it as an ANSWER!!!!!!!!! They can't......

 

[kelly keltner]

It is my understanding that Trias new Mitose. Hanshi Juchnik sought out Trias for Information about Mitose. Trias and Juchnik maintained close ties until his death.
Some of the katas we do come from O'sensei Trias. At least one, the Neko Buto kata supposedly came from Mitose.

kelly

As I read This today let me clarify. The Neko Buto Kata or cat dance form was taught from Mitose to Trias Then from Trias to Juchnik.

kelly

 

[Karazenpo]

As I read This today let me clarify. The Neko Buto Kata or cat dance form was taught from Mitose to Trias Then from Trias to Juchnik.

kelly

I did confirm with Gm. Trias' daughter, Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley that her father and Mitose were indeed friends during that time in Hawaii. Last I knew she was in the process of doing a book on her father's life. Should be very interesting and may clear up some questions on Mitose.

 

[GAB]

Hello Professor,
Thanks for the information you have been providing, regarding the up dates.
It will be interesting to see who gets contacted, or asked for their input in respects to the A&E Doc. Lots of players, a pretty large task considering.

Funny about the talk and no action, or no response. I will say this, today if you are going to be a bouncer, you better know what you are doing. Do they have a pension or they just out on their own? <(
Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello Professor,
Thanks for the information you have been providing, regarding the up dates.
It will be interesting to see who gets contacted, or asked for their input in respects to the A&E Doc. Lots of players, a pretty large task considering.

Funny about the talk and no action, or no response. I will say this, today if you are going to be a bouncer, you better know what you are doing. Do they have a pension or they just out on their own? <(
Regards, Gary

Gary, I spoke to Professor Abregana and I called Kelly and put them in touch. Professor Abregana is open to all input and like us, he is just searching for the truth and he does agree that regardless of the outcome Mitose is the one who planted the seed that was nurtured and cultivated into the many fine systems we have today. Again, despite any personal feelings about Mitose's criminal behavior (and I agree!) I still stand by this conclusion: "No Mitose-No Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo!" As the W.W.E.'s 'Stone Cold' Steve Austin would say: "AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE!!!!!"

 

[The Kai]

I know this might be a side track but,


The Neko Buto Form from Kosho Ryu and the Pinions from KaJuKenBo are the same(ish) forms??
Just curious
Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

I know this might be a side track but,


The Neko Buto Form from Kosho Ryu and the Pinions from KaJuKenBo are the same(ish) forms??
Just curious
Todd

Yes Todd, I have questions on that too, primarily because the Neko Buto kata is also reffered to as the 'cat dance'. I know and practice Palama set #1 (formerly Pinion #1 of Kajukenbo). I don't see any technique(s) in the form that would give it the nickname 'cat dance'. Professor Cerio named some of his katas 'cat forms' (Cat Forms 1-5) but you could see various movements from the 'cat family' in the forms, I just don't see this in Palama set #1.