Korean sword Hwando is not a copy of Katana; it predates Katana

Steven Lee

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...yeo_Korean_sword_Hwando_(original_Katana).jpg

==Korean weapon martial arts predating Muyedobotongji & their efficiency==

In this section, we will observe the sources of some Muyedobotongji sports. First, we have to differentiate between Fight Games & martial arts. The distinction is simple. East Asia's martial arts typically refer to an art form, typically doing Kata in the air. Fight Games are meant to be games fighting each other with no regards to being an artful form such as fencing. There is coaching how to do the game better, but there's no art form unlike typical East Asian martial art. There are only gaming, coaching, training with knowhow how to move. Also differentiate weapon training from weapon arts. The distinction is simply whether you teach the knowhow how to wield a weapon (or in barehand) or if it is in an art form. Korean historically didn't have weapon martial arts but only had weapon Fight Games & weapon training (coaching knowhow how to move with no regard to an art form) such as Kapeulchang, Samgapchang, Gyukgum, etc.

https://i.imgur.com/n4l6wi9.png
https://i.imgur.com/8lqczzp.png
https://i.imgur.com/w4tECE4.png
https://i.imgur.com/KEkyMWq.png
https://i.imgur.com/1dI67r7.png
https://i.imgur.com/LPOeChg.png

Even the name Bongookgum shows in Korean historical records before Muyedobotongji. "寢 貐資筏窶渠澎 諈儦卿 渠 寢澎萼 圉打諰 鮈 14 3 11(1673) 篣域科 篣堅 篣域曰頃 刷 儦 篣圉 到 ." Translation: "Even for the name Bongookgum, it shows in Seungjungwonilgi 1673's record, taking an exam in Bongookgum among with other sports."

http://www.mooye.net/14319

This was before the time of Muyedobotongji. Chosunsebub is a Chinese invention based on observing Korean Bongookgum, but Bongookgum is a traditional techniques. Historically, Korean has successfully managed sword fights & spear fights using such weapon Fight Games & weapon training (weapon training doesn't necessarily need an art form but just coaching knowhow). For example, during Imjin War, Korea has successfully won sword fights & spear fights against Japan.

https://i.imgur.com/ypwW6AH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cMVeu9q.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Kg47IIF.jpg

There are also other victories such as Sieon Lee chasing then defeating Japanese army in 1593 during Imjin War. In 1605, Sieon Lee also reported that Japanese are fancy with sword techniques but Koreans can win against them in sword fights. The main problem against Japan discussed was Japan's guns. Sieon Lee reported that Japanese sword soldiers only like to charge forward after Koreans were already dying or running away (from guns).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuQWBaGWYAQioet.jpg

Korean weapon arts in Muyedobotongji (most of those Muyedobotongji sports come from the traditional Korean Fight Games, coaching, knowhow, training before Muyedobotongji) don't use strikes such as punching cause those sports historically have been sufficient in winning even without doing such. Korean had good efficient weapon training & knowhow without art form (no martial art but training & coaching) making results before Muyedobotongji.
 

Christopher Adamchek

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Im not going to get into all your silly details
but your initial claim is true, Hwando is likely Chinese in origin roots and not a copy of the Katana
i believe koreans were more well known for their archery than swordsmanship
 

Flying Crane

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My ancestors, the Irish, invented the stick. Anyone who uses the stick just made a cheap rip-off of my ancestors. They had the stick way way way way way before anyone else did.

I admit to being hostile to everyone else who is not of Irish ancestry (other than the Polish and the Germans, also my ancestors). There is nothing political in my statements. While I hate everyone who is not Irish (with the exception of the Polish and Germans), I just want to set the record straight that the Irish invented the stick, and anyone who claims otherwise is a lying bastard. This is not political. This is just setting the record straight, and is merely the first in a long list of grievances. I have stone tablets that tell me it is true. Inscriptions and images of the Irish using sticks to fight off Leprechauns.

So say I, as I dance around the Festivus Pole. Which was invented by the Polish (MY ancestors!!!), and not the Jews.
 
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Steven Lee

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Korean was well known for archery, but Korean was still competent with spear & sword. Historically won sword fighting against Japan & China. (Results were made.) I think I was told that Hwando existed in Han China as well, but I didn't follow up with that claim.

Korean has had sword and spear fightings, which were recorded in Muyedobotongji textbook (18ki and 24ki) 300 years ago. Gichang & Bongookgum are Korean weapon sports. http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2

"篣域偷(瑽). 到偷渠澎 賱賄潺庚 窸木 篣 諝 賄 窱域禺木 蛭 諡渥渠."

"貐資筏窶(砍). 渠諡渠 貐資筏窶 潰 拖偷 麆趣 窶貐渠澎 穈."

As for barehand fighting sports, Korean has had Ssireum, Subak, Taekkyeon, Sibak (this street fighting sport includes punching and it's also in Taekkyeon), Gyeoksul (powerful North Korean martial art which started as Subak but upgraded to Sibak from Byungin Yoon's martial art experiences). Also, Korean has had power circus Charyuk/Kihapsul./Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari.
 
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Flying Crane

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Ok brainiac, how about this: cultures around the world both independently invented surprisingly similar technology and borrowed from each other at the same time.

The spear was common all over the world. So was archery (with exception of aboriginal Australia, where I believe there is no record of archery) and (gasp!!!) swords and axes and even sticks (despite my earlier rhetoric).

So yeah, we find this stuff all over the place and it is categorically impossible to state with any credibility, that some culture had it first and the others borrowed/stole it from them. And guess what: it does not matter.
 
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Steven Lee

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Regardless, some people have older historical records. But in this particular case, I think I was told Han China had Hwando/Katana before Korean. I didn't follow up with that claim though.
 

Xue Sheng

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Regardless, some people have older historical records. But in this particular case, I think I was told Han China had Hwando/Katana before Korean. I didn't follow up with that claim though.

China never had anything called a Hwando or a katana. They had multiple types of Dao and there are some that resemble a katana,

There is a Miaodao, but that is during the Republic Era which is fairly recent but there are other dao with similarities to the katana
Zhanmadao - Ming and Qing Dynasties
Qijiadao - Ming Dynasty
Yanlingdao - Ming Dynasty
Wodao - MIng Dynasty
Peidao - Qing Dynasty
Liuyedao - Ming and Qing Dynasties

Ming Dynasty - 13681644 followed the collapse of the Yuan (Mongol) Dynasty
Qing Dynasty - 1644 - 1912

Neither predates the Katana
 

JowGaWolf

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Neither predates the Katana
Doesn't matter. if someone was doing honest research then they would most likely compare the historical evolution of swords. Straight swords vs Curved swords. The shape of the sword is based on how the killing was intended to be done. Slashing vs Stabbing..

Once this is done, he would find that there were similar swords created long before Korea and Japan which would make the entire debate of Katana vs not kata origins pointless.

War played a big part in spread of sword technology. Allies shared weapons and when an army slaughters hundreds of enemy soldiers, the winning side takes what ever is of use from the dead soldiers and that included weapons. The weapons that are being compared would be what I called refined weapons. If you want to know what influenced the creation of the weapon then you'll need to look at the earlier weapons that came before it. It would be necessary to look at pre-samurai history and I haven't seen any of that in the discussion.

This is something I found on the internet but I haven't had a chance to verify it so I won't add the source that I got it from. But if it's accurate then it would be a good starting point.

"Later, the warabite tachi, a shorter sword, gained in popularity, but it would not be until after the Mongol invasions of the late 13th Century that the sword would begin to see serious use as a primary battlefield weapon. It was probably from the Emishi of central Honshu that the Japanese adopted the practice of constructing their swords single-edged, with a curved blade, although legend attributes this innovation to the swordsmith Amakuni"

So I did a some more research. and based on what I found the Mongols sword was the closest to the way that the kata looks. The Mongol controlled a large area and from what history states, they were good at integrating technology. They also controlled what is now Korea. You can compare the Mongolian Armor, the Korean Armor, and Samurai armor to see the similarities. My guess would be that the winner of a war would have the biggest influence, the better trained army, and the better weapons. According to what I've been able to find The Japanese Katana was born because the mongolian sword was a better weapon. On one of the websites it was noted that early japanese swords would chip and break against the mongolian swords.. So to me it's only logical to think that a Japanese sword maker got his hand on a Mongolian sword learn how to make a better sword.

My guess would also be that metal workers were in high demand back then. You can't make a sword without one. So if your village didn't pay much for your skill sets then you would travel somewhere else to make a better life for yourself, and in the process learn for other metal workers. An ability to make swords would make someone a valuable asset.

If I had to pick the nation that had the most influence, then I would say that the Mongols pretty much set the path. Which is usually the historical trend when one culture rules over another.
 

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Here are some more research topics that one can follow up towards the Mongol rule over Korea and the Mongol Invasion of Japan. If my memory is correct curved blades originated from the Middle east. It wasn't new tech as it was around for a long time. The curved blade cuts flesh better as it utilizes the circular motion of a swing more efficiently. Straight swords are better at poking and piercing. The Mongolian empire was made of many cultures which gave them easier access to various technologies. This access would have allowed them to share the knowledge and develop more effective weapons. Their wealth and power would have allowed them to pay for expertise as well. This is the same thing that modern "super power nations do." Knowledge rules kingdoms so the more you have the more you would be able to conduct weapon research.

Every culture has a Straight Sword Era and a Curved Sword Era. so if I had to a detailed research project on swords, I would find out when did a country start making Curved Swords and I would ask what was the major influence for the change. My assumption is that it's going to be either Alliances, War, or trade that sparked the change. Find out this answer you'll probably discover that Korea and Japan were late to the sword making game.

Early guns were probably already in use by the time the Japanese become really good with making swords. The first recorded used of a gun as we know it was in 1364. Prototypes would have existed before then due to the discover of gun powder.




Mongol Weapons

5386e5e6b01dc.jpg

composite bow

The Mongols improved on Persian and Chinese weapons. Mongol cavalrymen carried maces, lances with a hook and snare, sabers, three-quivered arrows and a composite bow made of wood, sinew and horn.

The Mongol sword The sabre
The Mongol warriors sword of choice was the sabre, a one handed curved blade thought to have been assigned to all Mongol warriors. The Mongol sabre was lightweight and agile and much easier to wield than a standard straight sword. The biggest advantage for the Mongol warriors was how the sabre was highly suitable for land and horseback use. Being a one handed weapon the warriors would have been able to keep control of their steeds while making swings at their foes.

The Mongol sword was fashioned from iron forged into steel, the handle often incorporating a guard, protecting the wielders fingers in the event of a clash or strike while in combat. The sabre itself is thought to have been created by the Mongols and the other inhabitants of central Asia. Later the curved shape would be copied numerous times by many civilisations and empires, testament to the use of the sabre in many situations.
 

Xue Sheng

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Here are some more research topics that one can follow up towards the Mongol rule over Korea and the Mongol Invasion of Japan. If my memory is correct curved blades originated from the Middle east. It wasn't new tech as it was around for a long time. The curved blade cuts flesh better as it utilizes the circular motion of a swing more efficiently. Straight swords are better at poking and piercing. The Mongolian empire was made of many cultures which gave them easier access to various technologies. This access would have allowed them to share the knowledge and develop more effective weapons. Their wealth and power would have allowed them to pay for expertise as well. This is the same thing that modern "super power nations do." Knowledge rules kingdoms so the more you have the more you would be able to conduct weapon research.

Every culture has a Straight Sword Era and a Curved Sword Era. so if I had to a detailed research project on swords, I would find out when did a country start making Curved Swords and I would ask what was the major influence for the change. My assumption is that it's going to be either Alliances, War, or trade that sparked the change. Find out this answer you'll probably discover that Korea and Japan were late to the sword making game.

Early guns were probably already in use by the time the Japanese become really good with making swords. The first recorded used of a gun as we know it was in 1364. Prototypes would have existed before then due to the discover of gun powder.




Mongol Weapons

5386e5e6b01dc.jpg

composite bow

The Mongols improved on Persian and Chinese weapons. Mongol cavalrymen carried maces, lances with a hook and snare, sabers, three-quivered arrows and a composite bow made of wood, sinew and horn.

The Mongol sword The sabre
The Mongol warriors sword of choice was the sabre, a one handed curved blade thought to have been assigned to all Mongol warriors. The Mongol sabre was lightweight and agile and much easier to wield than a standard straight sword. The biggest advantage for the Mongol warriors was how the sabre was highly suitable for land and horseback use. Being a one handed weapon the warriors would have been able to keep control of their steeds while making swings at their foes.

The Mongol sword was fashioned from iron forged into steel, the handle often incorporating a guard, protecting the wielders fingers in the event of a clash or strike while in combat. The sabre itself is thought to have been created by the Mongols and the other inhabitants of central Asia. Later the curved shape would be copied numerous times by many civilisations and empires, testament to the use of the sabre in many situations.

This also makes sense as it applies to the Ming Dynasty having similar swords since they are the dynasty right after the Yuan (Mongol) Dynasty
 

Xue Sheng

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My ancestors, the Irish, invented the stick. Anyone who uses the stick just made a cheap rip-off of my ancestors. They had the stick way way way way way before anyone else did.

I admit to being hostile to everyone else who is not of Irish ancestry (other than the Polish and the Germans, also my ancestors). There is nothing political in my statements. While I hate everyone who is not Irish (with the exception of the Polish and Germans), I just want to set the record straight that the Irish invented the stick, and anyone who claims otherwise is a lying bastard. This is not political. This is just setting the record straight, and is merely the first in a long list of grievances. I have stone tablets that tell me it is true. Inscriptions and images of the Irish using sticks to fight off Leprechauns.

So say I, as I dance around the Festivus Pole. Which was invented by the Polish (MY ancestors!!!), and not the Jews.

Well MY German ancestors invented the rock...and rock throwing, rock and roll, rocking chairs, rock climbing, founded the city of Rockport and they also wrote the song Rock Lobster...but they hated everyone so they were not bias about anyone
 

dvcochran

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My ancestors, the Irish, invented the stick. Anyone who uses the stick just made a cheap rip-off of my ancestors. They had the stick way way way way way before anyone else did.

I admit to being hostile to everyone else who is not of Irish ancestry (other than the Polish and the Germans, also my ancestors). There is nothing political in my statements. While I hate everyone who is not Irish (with the exception of the Polish and Germans), I just want to set the record straight that the Irish invented the stick, and anyone who claims otherwise is a lying bastard. This is not political. This is just setting the record straight, and is merely the first in a long list of grievances. I have stone tablets that tell me it is true. Inscriptions and images of the Irish using sticks to fight off Leprechauns.

So say I, as I dance around the Festivus Pole. Which was invented by the Polish (MY ancestors!!!), and not the Jews.
Comedy gold.
 

punisher73

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The earliest use of Korean swords were found to be bronze imports from China and bronze age production started around the 1st Century. Steel making techniques did not arrive until around 450 AD from China. The "Hwando" was a one handed sword with a single edge. In appearance, it looked similar to the Chinese "Jian", which was double edged. Until around the 3rd century, swords were reserved for royalty and high ranking officials and were not in use by the common soldier. In the later part of the Three Kingdoms period, swords were used by calvary and other mounted commanders. They were not used by the infantry (foot soldiers). It wasn't until the Joseon period 15th to 19th centuries) that swords were greater in number and usage and were carried by infantry.

The Japanese utilized a straight sword "tachi" prior to the Mongol invasion. This changed how the sword was used and made after problems with the blades chipping and breaking. The first reference to a sword outside of a "tachi" was called an "uchigatana" in 1185 and was probably the early version of the katana. By the early 1400's, what we think of as a "katana" was in use and carried in the manner which it is still today (cutting edge up).

Soooo...where does that leave things? Yes, the "Hwando" (a single edge, one handed straight sword) predated the "Katana" (a single edge, one handed curved sword). Not sure the relevancy of the topic or where you are trying to go with it?
 

Dirty Dog

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Well MY German ancestors invented the rock...and rock throwing, rock and roll, rocking chairs, rock climbing, founded the city of Rockport and they also wrote the song Rock Lobster...but they hated everyone so they were not bias about anyone

My Scottish ancestors invented Men in Skirts! So there!
Also the Claymore, caber tossing, Scotch, golf, and Engineering.
 

Xue Sheng

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My Scottish ancestors invented Men in Skirts! So there!
Also the Claymore, caber tossing, Scotch, golf, and Engineering.

HEY!!!! I have Scottish ancestors too....but they got kicked out of Scotland by James the first......so all they had time to invent was telephone pole throwing.
 

Dirty Dog

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HEY!!!! I have Scottish ancestors too....but they got kicked out of Scotland by James the first......so all they had time to invent was telephone pole throwing.

Caber toss. Because no telephones... :)
 

Tez3

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HEY!!!! I have Scottish ancestors too....but they got kicked out of Scotland by James the first......so all they had time to invent was telephone pole throwing.


There's no record of King James the First of Scotland throwing anyone out, he had a very eventful life though and ended up being murdered in 1437 CE.
King James the First of England was later but still doesn't have any record of throwing Scots out of Scotland.
 
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