Knuckle Pushups/Makiwara

[Kittan Bachika]

Anyone here do knuckle push ups or engage in makiwara training?

I used to do knuckle push ups on the index and middle knuckles of both hands but stopped I learned about the possibility of permanent damage to my hands. That hazard was further confirmed when I spoke to a doctor about the subject.

Whenever Chinese martial artist engaged in any type of training that required hitting their fists against an immovable object, they would immeditately apply medicine to their hands in order to recover from any damage that was inflicted.

From what I know about Makiwara training, there is no medicine applied after training and I have heard theories that the medicinal knowledge was lost in translation from China to Okinawa.

I think it comes down to genetics. I have met many martial artists who have done knuckle push ups all their life and have hit things harder than a makiwara. And they are perfectly fine. I just don't want to take that chance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't personally use a makiwara, but I don't have any opinion on them one way or another; just don't use one myself.

We do knuckle pushups in my dojo from time to time. I am no expert, but I don't see it as a conditioning exercise as much as it is a wrist-strengthening exercise. Helps build the strength to keep the wrist straight when punching, is all. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Whenever Chinese martial artist engaged in any type of training that required hitting their fists against an immovable object, they would immeditately apply medicine to their hands in order to recover from any damage that was inflicted.

This is not true for all CMA styles.

Example; non-sport Sanda used mostly palm strikes which are trained against hard surfaces such as walls and trees but there is noting applied to the hands after training. You are learning how to hit hard and "not" do damage to your hands. However It is not training I recommend without a Sifu. Without a Sifu you will hurt yourself.

As to Knuckle Pushups I have never been asked to do them nor have I wanted to. Whole fist I have done and it is more about wrist strength than conditioning, (as Bill said) IMO, but not individual knuckles

 

[Bruno@MT]

I don't personally use a makiwara, but I don't have any opinion on them one way or another; just don't use one myself.

We do knuckle pushups in my dojo from time to time. I am no expert, but I don't see it as a conditioning exercise as much as it is a wrist-strengthening exercise. Helps build the strength to keep the wrist straight when punching, is all. Just my 2 cents.

The load on the knuckles during pushups is nearly constant. Very little conditioning. Knuckle pushups are mainly a wrist strengthening / stabilizing exercise. I find them easier than normal pushups.

 

[zDom]

Have done some makiware and some knuckle pushups over the years. More earlier on, not as much nowadays.


Seems like putting SOME stress would be good as it would promote the growth of thicker bones.

And the wrist strengthening aspect is important.

In addition to a "softer" bag I use for training power in strikes, we have a "harder" back I use to maintain my knuckles. Both bags let me know my wrists still have the strength to deliver the power my body can generate behind my fists.

 

[still learning]

Hello, There are many training and condition excercises ....that will cause problems later in life (as you age)....

When young....knuckles, shins, and hitting hard objects....the human body was NOT design for those activitives....

Yet...many old timers...survive in the old years without any problems too..

Best to listen to your Doctors advice...pay attention your body is saying...if it hurts? ...might not be good in the life time training..BE wise here!

Life is very short....time flies...Health is the most important thing as you grow in age...

Aloha,

 

[Kittan Bachika]

This is not true for all CMA styles.

Example; non-sport Sanda used mostly palm strikes which are trained against hard surfaces such as walls and trees but there is noting applied to the hands after training. You are learning how to hit hard and "not" do damage to your hands. However It is not training I recommend without a Sifu. Without a Sifu you will hurt yourself.

As to Knuckle Pushups I have never been asked to do them nor have I wanted to. Whole fist I have done and it is more about wrist strength than conditioning, (as Bill said) IMO, but not individual knuckles

Let me clarify. Certain Chinese styles like Iron Palm have a regiment where fists are pounded into bags of beans, sand or some type of hard service.

I do concur though that any type of training that have this type of training should done under the supervision of a qualified sifu.

 

[seasoned]

In years past two knuckle hitting was common. Makiwara, plus knuckle pushups were used at every class. It was a badge of honor to sport big
a-- bad knuckles. While in training you could punch through walls, and we would hit anything we could. 40 some years later, not so good, years of abuse can take it's toll.

 

[tempus]

I went to a seminar and the guys knuckles were like three times the size of mine from years of pounding wood, rock and steel plate. Micro fractures would form in the knuckles and then heal with more bone. He was also a cop and knew when on a scene that the loser of a fight had the broken jaw and the winner had a broken hand. He stated if you do not toughen your knuckles you are better off with palm strikes so as not to break any hand bones. As far as I could tell, besides ugly knuckles, he had no hand issues.

 

[punisher73]

I went to a seminar and the guys knuckles were like three times the size of mine from years of pounding wood, rock and steel plate. Micro fractures would form in the knuckles and then heal with more bone. He was also a cop and knew when on a scene that the loser of a fight had the broken jaw and the winner had a broken hand. He stated if you do not toughen your knuckles you are better off with palm strikes so as not to break any hand bones. As far as I could tell, besides ugly knuckles, he had no hand issues.

I can't remember the exact study, but they looked at Mas Oyama's knuckles shortly before his death and concluded that there was no damage done to his hands after years of training.

I think that the key is training gradually over a long period of time. If you abuse your body now it will have consequences later. If you train smartly and take care of your hands, you won't cause damage later.

 

[jks9199]

I can't remember the exact study, but they looked at Mas Oyama's knuckles shortly before his death and concluded that there was no damage done to his hands after years of training.

I think that the key is training gradually over a long period of time. If you abuse your body now it will have consequences later. If you train smartly and take care of your hands, you won't cause damage later.

I think that's the thing... Some guys (especially) run out and break their hands up to "toughen" them. Well, I broke my knuckles plenty of times being a dumb angry kid. Didn't prove I was tough, and didn't make my hands any tougher. Gradual hardening, working on heavy bags and the like did a much better job.

 

[Uchinanchu]

Anyone here do knuckle push ups or engage in makiwara training?


From what I know about Makiwara training, there is no medicine applied after training and I have heard theories that the medicinal knowledge was lost in translation from China to Okinawa.

I think it comes down to genetics. I have met many martial artists who have done knuckle push ups all their life and have hit things harder than a makiwara. And they are perfectly fine. I just don't want to take that chance.

That 'theory' is incorrect. There are dojo/sensei here in Okinawa that use dit da jow (or other equivelent thereof) before and after training kotekitai and makiwara.
As far as some individuals being more genetically predisposed to such training, that goes without saying. We are all unique individuals with varying strengths and weaknesses.
The one thing all of us should keep in mind when training with such tools, is to train smarter, not harder. Moderation, consistancy, time, and rest are key when performing such exercises.

 

[frank raud]

Anyone here do knuckle push ups or engage in makiwara training?

I used to do knuckle push ups on the index and middle knuckles of both hands but stopped I learned about the possibility of permanent damage to my hands. That hazard was further confirmed when I spoke to a doctor about the subject.

What exactly did the doctor say was the reason knuckle pushups could cause permanent damage? Permanent damage to what?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ever see the knuckles of Pan Qing Fu

He sits and hits a steel plate – look at the last picture

I can tell you from personal experience you do feel even a light hit from one of those

 

[Flea]

I'm glad to see this thread. At Thanksgiving I told my mother about the knuckle pushups in Systema and she gave me a lecture about how I was giving myself arthritis. "At least do it on the carpet!" No one knows how to lecture like a mom. :mst:

Maybe I'll ask my doctor too, since it sounds like we have a range of opinions here.

 

[punisher73]

I'm glad to see this thread. At Thanksgiving I told my mother about the knuckle pushups in Systema and she gave me a lecture about how I was giving myself arthritis. "At least do it on the carpet!" No one knows how to lecture like a mom. :mst:

Maybe I'll ask my doctor too, since it sounds like we have a range of opinions here.

I think that doctors opinions will vary too. I would try and find a doctor that has MA experience and knows the proper training method in question. I've heard doctors give opinions on things they really have no clue on because it is not their speciality.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

What exactly did the doctor say was the reason knuckle pushups could cause permanent damage? Permanent damage to what?

It was some medical jargon but basically the doctor stated that over time that type of trauma causes arthritis.

 

[frank raud]

It was some medical jargon but basically the doctor stated that over time that type of trauma causes arthritis.

As has been pointed out by others, the pressure is constant while doing knuckle pushups, I am not understanding what "trauma" is caused by constant pressure, nor what could cause arthritis. I have personally seen
people take body conditioning to the extreme, using rock hammers to bang on their shins and jaws, with their bodies suffering and semi crippled in the quest to turn their bodies into weapons. But knuckle pushups are more of a skeletal alignment excercise, to strengthen your wrists for when you focus the strike on the first two knuckles.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Id be surprised if knuckle push ups do much damage. At my club all red belt and above must do their push ups on knuckles and we will do between 20 and 100 push ups in a class most nights. Our club has been doing this for over 35 years now and none of the older guys at the club (my instructor is 6th dan) have any problems from doing knuckle push ups over a long period of time.

 

[zDom]

As has been pointed out by others, the pressure is constant while doing knuckle pushups, I am not understanding what "trauma" is caused by constant pressure, nor what could cause arthritis. I have personally seen
people take body conditioning to the extreme, using rock hammers to bang on their shins and jaws, with their bodies suffering and semi crippled in the quest to turn their bodies into weapons. But knuckle pushups are more of a skeletal alignment excercise, to strengthen your wrists for when you focus the strike on the first two knuckles.

Trauma would be what you are likely to end up with if you ever have to strike something hard without ever training your bones and connective tissues for hard contact.