Knife Edge Concept

[mvbrown21]

Hey guys,

I finally got my brother to illustrate this concept for me so I wanted to share it with you. A small detail but can make a world of difference if applied properly.

We practice our Chi Sao and Dan Chi Sao with what is called the Knife Edge to stick with. It allows you to optimize your stick and at the same time allow you to "feel" the opponents intentions even quicker due to a solid bone to bone contact.

Essentially the "riding arm" makes contact to the opponent by the outside bone of your forearm. I've seen a lot of other systems will stick with the flesh underside of their wrist or the bottom part of their palm. Not saying those methods don't work but I wouldn't say they're optimized either.

Practicing this way will allow you put all of your forward energy(towards the center) behind your elbow. Try this little example out to feel the difference. Hold your left arm out to your center. Now "ride" it with your right and apply the same forward pressure you apply in sticky hands. Try out the fleshy underside first. Then the bottom part of your palm. Now try out this method and imagine you don't have any hands and just use that outside bone, pretty much you're in a straight punch configuration without making a fist. Now tell me which one feels the best.

The way it works is like a knife edge sliding along a board. At the right angle it will eventually "stick" and not be able to slide along the board anymore. The important part here is the bone to bone contact. That outside bone is your knife edge and your forearm is the angle with your elbow being the handle. Imagine one of those razor blade scrapper knifes to understand what I mean.

Now when the opponent rolls from tan to bong keep that forward pressure even and his arm will actually work like a conveyor belt lifting your stick up about an inch or so from it's original location. You're stick will never slip using this method. The reason this works is because since you have bone to bone contact, as he rolls from his inside bone to his outside bone he's actually lifting your riding arm up for you helping you stick to him! Watch, move from tan to bong right now to see what I mean or even better try it out with someone.

And when he rolls back down you'll end up in the original configuration. You're opponent will truly do all the work for you with you're only obligation being to equalize.

_

You can also see it in the "roll" in this video with my Sifu:

This is a really important concept though. Almost every block/redirection comes out of bone to bone contact if your really think about it. The fleshy part of our arms are in the minority for usefulness. The closer we can actually touch the structure, i.e. bones, the easier it will be to control. This method will teach you to "cut in" into the opponents structure whenever you stick.

 

[geezer]

I can't help but notice that in the second picture, one person is marking on a paper with a pen or pencil. Is that you sketching your hand position? Nice drawings by the way. They illustrate your point much better than the computer diagrams people often post... and in order to draw something well, you really have to pay attention to what you are looking at.

 

[mvbrown21]

I can't help but notice that in the second picture, one person is marking on a paper with a pen or pencil. Is that you sketching your hand position? Nice drawings by the way. They illustrate your point much better than the computer diagrams people often post... and in order to draw something well, you really have to pay attention to what you are looking at.

Thanks geezer, that's actually my brother there with the pencil. He doesn't practice WC but he was helping me illustrate this concept. That drawing doesn't even come close to what he's capable of! Check out his website at www.jasonbrownart.com

 

[mook jong man]

I experimented with this forearm position a few years back for a little while , didn't like it and went back to my former method which is a relaxed natural forearm position.

One of the translations of Fook Sau is " Subduing arm/hand" one of the problems I see with this forearm position is the lack of control you have over the opponents wrist , it is not really subduing it is just in contact.

With the more natural position your hand drops down approximating the position of a half executed Huen Sau , this locks the opponents Tan Sau in between your wrist and the outer edge of your hand , his wrist is locked in and can't go anywhere offering more control , and you need all the control you can get when you got someone who can fire off very fast palm strikes from the Tan Sau.

I also find a natural forearm position keeps the biceps relaxed , whereas rotating the arm to an artificial position tends to cause the biceps to be in a state of contraction , this will cause the biceps to be in opposition to the triceps which is not what I want when I am trying to maintain my angles against heavy incoming force.

I have issues with the bone on bone contact thing as well , If I am trying to latch an elbow strike down with my Fook Sau and I am using this forearm configuration then I am going to get chunks of bone taken out of my forearm.

That little bit of muscular padding at the front of the forearm makes a world of difference when you are trying to pull an elbow strike down or even a heavy impact from a backfist

I would have to respectfully disagree as to the superiority of the sensitivity of the edge- on forearm position , I think more nerve receptors are probably located on the centre of the wrist rather than towards the edge.

Just as an experiment on myself If I give myself a little tickle with my other hand on the edge of my wrist I can certainly feel it , but if I do it on the centre of my wrist the feeling seems to be more magnified.

But at the end of the day people can do what they want , and if it's working for you great

 

[mvbrown21]

I experimented with this forearm position a few years back for a little while , didn't like it and went back to my former method which is a relaxed natural forearm position.

One of the translations of Fook Sau is " Subduing arm/hand" one of the problems I see with this forearm position is the lack of control you have over the opponents wrist , it is not really subduing it is just in contact.

With the more natural position your hand drops down approximating the position of a half executed Huen Sau , this locks the opponents Tan Sau in between your wrist and the outer edge of your hand , his wrist is locked in and can't go anywhere offering more control , and you need all the control you can get when you got someone who can fire off very fast palm strikes from the Tan Sau.

I also find a natural forearm position keeps the biceps relaxed , whereas rotating the arm to an artificial position tends to cause the biceps to be in a state of contraction , this will cause the biceps to be in opposition to the triceps which is not what I want when I am trying to maintain my angles against heavy incoming force.

I have issues with the bone on bone contact thing as well , If I am trying to latch an elbow strike down with my Fook Sau and I am using this forearm configuration then I am going to get chunks of bone taken out of my forearm.

That little bit of muscular padding at the front of the forearm makes a world of difference when you are trying to pull an elbow strike down or even a heavy impact from a backfist

I would have to respectfully disagree as to the superiority of the sensitivity of the edge- on forearm position , I think more nerve receptors are probably located on the centre of the wrist rather than towards the edge.

Just as an experiment on myself If I give myself a little tickle with my other hand on the edge of my wrist I can certainly feel it , but if I do it on the centre of my wrist the feeling seems to be more magnified.

But at the end of the day people can do what they want , and if it's working for you great

I see your points and like you said at the end of the day it's up to the practitioner and what he wants.

If that's your natural arm position than that works for you. Mine is like a straight punch which is essentially what this position is. I think the benefit is you have your elbow truly behind your structure. Imagine you have no hands, by having bone to bone contact you can control your opponent much easier due to the connection of the elbow reducing tremendously the chance of you slipping.

With proper equalization with forward pressure towards the center you won't have any of the problems listed above.

Also, I thought Chi Sao reflexes were supposed to be the result of your structure being moved, i.e. bones, and not skin sensitivity??

 

[bully]

Great drawings and pictures, trying to get my pea brain around the idea.

Been a long day here so will re read tomorrow.

Cheers for posting it, the pics are really cool.

 

[wtxs]

Also, I thought Chi Sao reflexes were supposed to be the result of your structure being moved, i.e. bones, and not skin sensitivity??

First organ of our body to be moved is the skin, then muscle, then bone(s), then the body as an whole (structure).

Without sensitivity, there is no signal for our brain to issue an command to react (reflex).

 

[Eric_H]

This is probably going to come off like me being a jerk, but I have to say it.

That fook sao is only working cause that Tahn is such crap. Tahn is dispersing, it requires a straight structure from immovable elbow position to tip of fingers, the bend at the wrist and poor elbow positioning are choking up the energy.

You shouldn't even need fook against that, just punch right in to the stomach.

For the matter of the fook, you're not applying your wrist effectively, though there is some variance in between lineages i don't think any of them would agree with having your fingers pointing up like that. YM lines tend to do a bit more like a flat crane beak structure (balance a teacup on it) HFY coils so the fingers point down at a bit less than 45 degrees, somewhat similar to praying mantis.

 

[mvbrown21]

This is probably going to come off like me being a jerk, but I have to say it.

That fook sao is only working cause that Tahn is such crap. Tahn is dispersing, it requires a straight structure from immovable elbow position to tip of fingers, the bend at the wrist and poor elbow positioning are choking up the energy.

You shouldn't even need fook against that, just punch right in to the stomach.

For the matter of the fook, you're not applying your wrist effectively, though there is some variance in between lineages i don't think any of them would agree with having your fingers pointing up like that. YM lines tend to do a bit more like a flat crane beak structure (balance a teacup on it) HFY coils so the fingers point down at a bit less than 45 degrees, somewhat similar to praying mantis.

This is probably going to come across like I'm being a smart *** but I have to say it too, take a look closer at the picture! See the pencil in the hand and remember the part in the post where I said my brother was helping me illustrate the concept. Concept being the key word there. Do you just assume we're kung fu brothers? Here's some food for thought too, what position is your fook sau in when you do sil lum Tao?
What direction is that outside bone facing and what position is your hand facing and more importantly, what direction is your elbow pushing?

Just watch the video and pay attention to our "riding hands" in our roll

 

[mvbrown21]

First organ of our body to be moved is the skin, then muscle, then bone(s), then the body as an whole (structure).

Without sensitivity, there is no signal for our brain to issue an command to react (reflex).

Let me ask you this. Ever had your "riding hand" jam your opponents poorly angled attack by not even moving? Has nothing to do with skin sensitivity my friend...

 

[Eric_H]

This is probably going to come across like I'm being a smart *** but I have to say it too, take a look closer at the picture! See the pencil in the hand and remember the part in the post where I said my brother was helping me illustrate the concept. Concept being the key word there. Do you just assume we're kung fu brothers? Here's some food for thought too, what position is your fook sau in when you do sil lum Tao?
What direction is that outside bone facing and what position is your hand facing and more importantly, what direction is your elbow pushing?

Just watch the video and pay attention to our "riding hands" in our roll

C'mon man, if you're going to put out a photo to illustrate a concept, the photo should be correct or at least "good enough for TV"

To answer your questions.
1 + 2. The coiled position I've already talked about.
3. Elbow pushing forward with an inward hooking nature.

I can't watch the vid @work, but I'll give it a look once I'm home.

 

[tenzen]

Chi sao is a sensitivity drill first and foremost. The skin will feel faster than the bone. Also when using the bone on bone as you describe with the forward pressure, anyone who's been doing chi sao long enough will dispers/difuse your pressure. What I mean here is that with that pressure you talk about a simple feint by your opponent will cause you to need to change quickly and that won't happen with that bone to bone and forward pressure. Sensitivity is what chi sao is all about man. Maybe you can/have found a way for it to work for you, but I just don't see it being effective.

Can you post a video of you applying this theory during chi sao? With someone who has experience?
I would like to see your concept in action, especially since the drawing is not getting the whole point across to us. Good drawing though.

 

[mvbrown21]

Chi sao is a sensitivity drill first and foremost. The skin will feel faster than the bone. Also when using the bone on bone as you describe with the forward pressure, anyone who's been doing chi sao long enough will dispers/difuse your pressure. What I mean here is that with that pressure you talk about a simple feint by your opponent will cause you to need to change quickly and that won't happen with that bone to bone and forward pressure. Sensitivity is what chi sao is all about man. Maybe you can/have found a way for it to work for you, but I just don't see it being effective.

Can you post a video of you applying this theory during chi sao? With someone who has experience?
I would like to see your concept in action, especially since the drawing is not getting the whole point across to us. Good drawing though.

Sorry dude, just never had any emphasis on skin sensitivity in my training. It's always been "bone joint structure". Equalization being the key. That forward pressure comes in to the apex of your triangle. It's not heavy or involves muscle. Whatever pressure the opponent gives you, you equalize back right up until that fail point where you would have to use muscle, and then you switch. The concept of WC is to always move into the opponents center using your triangle. Most likely a straight punch, chop, or palm. All of those are still the triangle structure. Say your opponent blocks you and moves those attacks off the line, you adjust your "structure" with constant forward intent. He pretty much moves your structure for you, so to speak, and every time his forward pressure moves your structure outside of your triangle(off the line) your body/bones change on there own to retake the open line. You feel it in your elbow, not your hands/wrist. Having bone to bone contact allows you to feel it in your elbow quicker because you're relying on your structure to respond, not sensitivity. I'll guarantee you right now that if you apply this concept in the fook sau position with that proper forward pressure, if your opponent releases his own equalization, you'll strike out faster than any other way of doing this.

Think about it, I hate to call them blocks because they're really not, but almost every single block has a bone to bone contact allowing you to feel from your elbow when you need to switch. So if that's the case, why would you not train you're "riding hand" in the Chi Sao roll to feel directly from the elbow?

There's an even finer concept to this knife edge idea that I'll try to explain real quick but is next to impossible to understand without feeling it first hand. You can control from fook sau when your opponent tries to open the line simply by twisting that outside bone slightly into his arm, hence "cutting in". It will jam his arm and if done right can actually be quite painful.

I come from the Ho Kam Ming/Augustine Fong line and everything is talked about in this "bone joint structure" type of way. I trust it too because I know that HKM spent a tremendous amount of one on one time with Ip Man right up until his death. He's well known and respected for his grasp on the theory/concepts of WC.

I don't know if you didn't see that I posted a video above in the original post or you just were implying we weren't experienced but here's that one again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo&feature=channel_video_title

And here's Augustine Fong doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0u3IFLCrBU&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1omjyP3NNso&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI&feature=relmfu (This one is more the "bone joint structure" concept that I explained above but this gets nurtured out of doing Chi Sao roll with that bone contact)


_

 

[mook jong man]

Well if you want to start name dropping I tend to trust a man name Tsui Seung Tin , you might have heard him.
He's only trained continuously since 1952, and in fact was one of the so called four "closed door students" those being Leung Sheung , Lok Yiu , Tsui Seung Tin and Wong Shun Leung.

Tsui Seung Tin with the others (except WSL) actually lived with Yip Man for quite a few years as a disciple doing all the chores for him that would normally be considered servants work.

Taught all the classes for Yip while Yip Man was wacked out on opium , and before Yip Man died he is reputed to have said that Tsui Seung Tin had surpassed his own skill.

The man is what we would call in Australia a "Quiet Achiever" he just goes about the business of teaching his students and is not into all the shameless self promotion that is so prevalent these days.

 

[mvbrown21]

Well if you want to start name dropping I tend to trust a man name Tsui Seung Tin , you might have heard him.
He's only trained continuously since 1952, and in fact was one of the so called four "closed door students" those being Leung Sheung , Lok Yiu , Tsui Seung Tin and Wong Shun Leung.

Tsui Seung Tin with the others (except WSL) actually lived with Yip Man for quite a few years as a disciple doing all the chores for him that would normally be considered servants work.

Taught all the classes for Yip while Yip Man was wacked out on opium , and before Yip Man died he is reputed to have said that Tsui Seung Tin had surpassed his own skill.

The man is what we would call in Australia a "Quiet Achiever" he just goes about the business of teaching his students and is not into all the shameless self promotion that is so prevalent these days.

Wasn't name dropping dude, just expressing that I didn't make this up....

 

[tenzen]

Wasn't saying your inexperienced, just didn't see a link to any video. I'm well aware of augustine fong and his ability. And since we r all being name droppers my wc is from wsl. Just wanted to throw that in there lol. Anyway I'm tired at the moment ill check out your videos in the morning. But until then my belief still stands. I think the way your explaining is counter productive. Maybe just maybe that will change in the morning. No afternoon because after I see it I'm gonna try it. Ill let u know.

 

[bully]

MJM, that is interesting stuff. I like reading snippets like that.

Going to look up TST and do some reading, a lineage/person I don't really know a lot about.

Sorry for going o/t Mr Brown (I have to call you that now like in Reservoir Dogs ;-))

 

[Eric_H]

Finally got to watch all the videos on the thread.

Still don't think there's much there. =/

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . and in fact was one of the so called four "closed door students" those being Leung Sheung , Lok Yiu , Tsui Seung Tin and Wong Shun Leung.

And don't forget Duncan Leung. He trained privately for 10 years with Yip Man going to his home several times a week. Even Moy Yat (Yip Man's school scribe or historian) didn't know about Duncan Leung until YM death.

 

[wtxs]

Chi sao is a sensitivity drill first and foremost.

Some get it and then some don't. After Chi Sao comes Lok Sao or Poon Sao, that's when experimentation of using what had learned (tools) comes in.