Knife Edge Concept

[wtxs]

Let me ask you this. Ever had your "riding hand" jam your opponents poorly angled attack by not even moving? Has nothing to do with skin sensitivity my friend...

With over 35 years of WC, I just might be able to do that. In this instant, what you refers to as "jamming" equates to wast of movement, not an economy of motion principle. How ever, I hope that I'm not too old, too close minded or too arrogant to learn some thing really new.

Instead of jamming, the "riding hand" should slide/slices in to attack, and you can't do that without knowing your opponent's positioning, you do that by touch/feel ... that sensory input is immediate through the receptors of your skin.

 

[tenzen]

Ok people the verdict is out. I have watched the videos mr brown has posted and tried his theory.

First in the videos the guy was constantly getting in on your sifu, had he wanted to really hit him he would have.

Now, I tried this theory you have laid before the court, with 2 individuals who are moderate chi sao players. Same thing in my case, they were able to get in on me. These individuals, when doing chi sao the regular way, are not able to achieve the same result.

I would like to tell the court that after testing this method for roughly 3 hours, it does not work. There is a loss of sensitivity and it is limiting in reaction time.

Good try though mr brown, if it works for you keep it up.

Thank you court is adjourned.

 

[mook jong man]

It's good to experiment though isn't it , but usually what you find is that things are done a certain way for a very good reason .

That reason may not always be apparent to you at the moment , but it usually hits you years down the track and you have a moment where you think " So that's why we do it like that "

My personal opinion is that there are centuries of accumulated wisdom behind these techniques and if there were a better way of doing these things it would have been discovered a long long time ago.

While technology has advanced in the realms of understanding biomechanics and sports fitness etc.
The bottom line is that it is still your arm on top of another mans arm , trying to stop him from hitting you just as it was centuries ago.

I've already said my piece in regards to the hand position of the Fook Sau , I believe having the hand relaxed and hooked over the opponents wrist offers more in the way of control and quick reaction time in either dragging a strike down (Tor Sau) or even taking the strike off line with a pivot and Huen Sau.

But apart from that I believe the most important things for a good Fook Sau I believe are to be wrist position , without that wrist dead on centreline you are stopping nothing .

Then what we would call " Weighting the wrist" the ability to relax and transfer your bodyweight into your wrist , this stops the opponents strike from even accelerating off the mark.
Last but not least you have to have forward force , this with the other elements have to all be present to some degree.

Fook Sau is the hardest technique to master in my opinion , you are going to take a lot of hard palm strikes in the chest before you get to the point where you can stop anything with anything like 100 percent reliability , and if you think you can then maybe it's time for you to Chi Sau with somebody of a higher skill level.

But I do commend Mr Brown for submitting his methods for perusal and hope that he will continue to do so , they are thought provoking and generate a lot of interesting discussion.

And there's nothing I like better than a damn good discussion on the technical aspects of Wing Chun , lets face it our wives got sick of us talking about it years ago.

 

[Vajramusti]

Ok people the verdict is out. I have watched the videos mr brown has posted and tried his theory.

First in the videos the guy was constantly getting in on your sifu, had he wanted to really hit him he would have.

Now, I tried this theory you have laid before the court, with 2 individuals who are moderate chi sao players. Same thing in my case, they were able to get in on me. These individuals, when doing chi sao the regular way, are not able to achieve the same result.

I would like to tell the court that after testing this method for roughly 3 hours, it does not work. There is a loss of sensitivity and it is limiting in reaction time.

Good try though mr brown, if it works for you keep it up.

Thank you court is adjourned.

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Hi Tenzen- you are entitled to your opinions.I am not here to explain any "theory". "Getting in on your sifu".. an issue of fact is involved... Charlie Vaght(first video) is Matt's sifu...not Fong. "Ed" was doing a form of chi sao with his sifu Fong in the second, third and fourth video. Fong was primarily showing blocking not attacking-just fending off Ed. Fong could attack any time if he chose to.Ed was NOT getting through.If you can, slow down the frames to see.Blocking drills teaches how to close lines.In attacking if you miss by a an inch- against a competent person you miss by a mile.
Apparently the "experiment" didn't work for you. But was it really an experiment? You do not do things that way and just trying it out briefly is not an experiment... it's an experience.
I am not going to try to convince you- - you are entitled to your opinion.Just an attempt at making a couple of factual corrections about Fong.

Case neither closed or reopened- just a brief discussion of some perhaps misunderstood points.

Mook or Zepeda..? Name dropping is not an issue. I have chi saoed with WSL and TST- I respect them.. wont critique them here
Good wishes,.

joy chaudhuri

 

[tenzen]

I was not saying that he could beat fong, nor was I saying fong wasnot trying. Clearly he was only demonstrating defensive maneuvers and could have easily struck the other guy. What I'm saying is that the few moments he was doing the bone to bone contact that mr brown was refering to had it been a real confrontation or had he really been trying to hit him he could have. But for the most part what I saw was fong demonstrating regular chi sao not the bone to bone concept mr brown was trying to convey. Maybe it does work, but if I was touching hands with someone and they tried this I can guarantee it will fail. There is too great of a loss of sensitivity for it to work with someone who knows chi sao. Of course this is just my opinion, but I have tried the described method and so have some of my students. Both yesterday and today. When I see things different I want to make them work I like different. But for me and about 8 other people that I know of, it doesn't work for us.

Mr brown I hope you keep comming with your ideas I like em and they may work for some. It also makes for interesting training sessions trying these things out. And don't think I was criticizing your lineage because I am not. I have heard nothing but great things about fong sifu and his people, I was merely pointing out what I observed in the videos you posted. Also it should be noted that even with video you can't truely capture what's going on, especially with wc. Also a lot of the times the people on video don't realize they are being put on the net so there is no editing or proofing, its just raw. Thanks for the post man.

 

[Vajramusti]

I was not saying that he could beat fong, nor was I saying fong wasnot trying. Clearly he was only demonstrating defensive maneuvers and could have easily struck the other guy. What I'm saying is that the few moments he was doing the bone to bone contact that mr brown was refering to had it been a real confrontation or had he really been trying to hit him he could have. But for the most part what I saw was fong demonstrating regular chi sao not the bone to bone concept mr brown was trying to convey. Maybe it does work, but if I was touching hands with someone and they tried this I can guarantee it will fail. There is too great of a loss of sensitivity for it to work with someone who knows chi sao. Of course this is just my opinion, but I have tried the described method and so have some of my students. Both yesterday and today. When I see things different I want to make them work I like different. But for me and about 8 other people that I know of, it doesn't work for us.

Mr brown I hope you keep comming with your ideas I like em and they may work for some. It also makes for interesting training sessions trying these things out. And don't think I was criticizing your lineage because I am not. I have heard nothing but great things about fong sifu and his people, I was merely pointing out what I observed in the videos you posted. Also it should be noted that even with video you can't truely capture what's going on, especially with wc. Also a lot of the times the people on video don't realize they are being put on the net so there is no editing or proofing, its just raw. Thanks for the post man.

______________________________________________________________
No problem in you doing it your way. As far as guaranteeing anything- it depends on who is on the other side as well. It's Brown's thread, so I won't mess it up. Just a discussion.Much depends on how the whole structure of a person is coordinated. And the video is just one of Fong sifu playing- he did not put up that video. Watch closely where Ip Man's "kiu" is in the few stills of him in chi sao.

joy chaudhuri

 

[mvbrown21]

I was not saying that he could beat fong, nor was I saying fong wasnot trying. Clearly he was only demonstrating defensive maneuvers and could have easily struck the other guy. What I'm saying is that the few moments he was doing the bone to bone contact that mr brown was refering to had it been a real confrontation or had he really been trying to hit him he could have. But for the most part what I saw was fong demonstrating regular chi sao not the bone to bone concept mr brown was trying to convey. Maybe it does work, but if I was touching hands with someone and they tried this I can guarantee it will fail. There is too great of a loss of sensitivity for it to work with someone who knows chi sao. Of course this is just my opinion, but I have tried the described method and so have some of my students. Both yesterday and today. When I see things different I want to make them work I like different. But for me and about 8 other people that I know of, it doesn't work for us.

Mr brown I hope you keep comming with your ideas I like em and they may work for some. It also makes for interesting training sessions trying these things out. And don't think I was criticizing your lineage because I am not. I have heard nothing but great things about fong sifu and his people, I was merely pointing out what I observed in the videos you posted. Also it should be noted that even with video you can't truely capture what's going on, especially with wc. Also a lot of the times the people on video don't realize they are being put on the net so there is no editing or proofing, its just raw. Thanks for the post man.

It's all good Tenzen. Thank you for at least trying it out.

I was referring to the "riding hand" position in the chi sao roll and not when actually "crossing hands" takes place. The position itself isn't so much a magical thing as is the body mechanics behind it and the intent. When you're just "rolling", nothing more, which is really what chi sao is, practicing this way makes you rely on your "structure" alone, not sensitivity. That equalization towards your triangle apex which faces the opponents center is, at least in our way of thinking, what WC is all about. You maximize your reliance on structure alone by "rolling" this way, causing you to rely completely on your elbow triangle. When the opponents equalization doesn't match your triangle structure your body will react in a truly "spontaneous" way. This concept and training technique is exactly the reason Fong's stuff is as fluid and smooth as you see it. That last video I posted of him that I pointed out is about this concept was exactly that and like Joy said he wasn't attacking, which makes it even easier to see if you know what to look for. His body structure was naturally coming back to the center on it's own with whatever Ed was throwing at him. Hence body structure unity. Equalization is everything, at least to us.

In the end, it's not an easy concept to understand unless you train this way regularly, and I by no means, either exemplify it perfectly or possibly described it perfectly either. But one thing I do know, is that this idea is what is the most diverse among the lineages.
If what works for you works, that's great and keep on keeping on. Just trying to share a different way of looking at things.

Thanks

 

[Eric_H]

When you're just "rolling", nothing more, which is really what chi sao is

Disagree 100%, chi sao is a form of structure testing. If you're just "rolling to roll" its nothing more than a pointless sensitivity drill.

 

[mvbrown21]

Disagree 100%, chi sao is a form of structure testing. If you're just "rolling to roll" its nothing more than a pointless sensitivity drill.

Yeah, I know buddy, sorry, I thought that was obvious. Just differentiating between "crossing hands" and "roll". Sometimes people call both Chi Sao

 

[Eric_H]

Yeah, I know buddy, sorry, I thought that was obvious. Just differentiating between "crossing hands" and "roll". Sometimes people call both Chi Sao

No worries.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Mook or Zepeda..? Name dropping is not an issue. I have chi saoed with WSL and TST- I respect them.. wont critique them here

It wasn't me, I did not name drop or critique. I just stated not to forget that Duncan Leung should also be in that list of closed door disciples of Yip Man. Many forget about him because he is very quiet and un-assuming and does not involve himself in the Wing Chun politics.

 

[Vajramusti]

It wasn't me, I did not name drop or critique. I just stated not to forget that Duncan Leung should also be in that list of closed door disciples of Yip Man. Many forget about him because he is very quiet and un-assuming and does not involve himself in the Wing Chun politics.

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No problem Zepeda. Duncan Leung has produced some good students... Allan Lee in NYC and Steven Leung now in Las Vegas.

joy chaudhuri