Knife Defense

[kwaichang]

There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable. The contingency we have not considered seriously looks strange; what looks strange is thought improbable; what is improbable need not be considered seriously.

Thomas Schelling

IMO, “Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns.” and be prepared to do that every day.

 

[thetruth]

The last video was no different to any other predetermined attack scenario. The first one seemed to offer little after grabbing the arm. The 2nd seemed ok but they were always trying to get the same type of grab and move from there. But as mentioned there was zero aggression from the attackers. I also believe that one should mention and condition people mentally to the fact they are almost always going to get cut while defending against a knife attack. Lastly the eyes were never mentioned as an defense target. A while back a guy in South Australia was attacked with a knife. He was stabbed 5 times and in dire straits but managed to gouge the attackers eyes to the point the attacker begged him to let go, dropped the knife and ran away.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[zDom]

The important thing, regardless of the type of attack you are facing (psycho style, pumping, whatever) is to have a "GET the KNIFE" mindset instead of a "Oh noes! He has a knife! Oh noes!" mindset.

Yea, might still get cut or stabbed once or twice.. but couple cuts or stab wounds isn't as bad a being stabbed over and over and over again until you are dead.

Easy to poke holes in techniques with all the "what ifs" but training even "faulty" techniques and developing that "get the knife" mentality is better than no training at all, eh?

 

[jks9199]

The important thing, regardless of the type of attack you are facing (psycho style, pumping, whatever) is to have a "GET the KNIFE" mindset instead of a "Oh noes! He has a knife! Oh noes!" mindset.

Yea, might still get cut or stabbed once or twice.. but couple cuts or stab wounds isn't as bad a being stabbed over and over and over again until you are dead.

Easy to poke holes in techniques with all the "what ifs" but training even "faulty" techniques and developing that "get the knife" mentality is better than no training at all, eh?

Actually, one of my biggest issues with a lot of unarmed defensive techniques for dealing with armed attackers is the emphasis on taking the weapon away, whether it's a gun or knife. My opinion is that, if you're forced to go unarmed against a knife or gun -- why get into a wrestling match over the weapon. Move in, and take the attacker out of the fight... If they're down & out -- then if you really want to, you can take the knife.

In other words -- I say "GET THE BASTARD!" instead of "get the knife."

 

[kwaichang]

Actually, one of my biggest issues with a lot of unarmed defensive techniques for dealing with armed attackers is the emphasis on taking the weapon away, whether it's a gun or knife. My opinion is that, if you're forced to go unarmed against a knife or gun -- why get into a wrestling match over the weapon. Move in, and take the attacker out of the fight... If they're down & out -- then if you really want to, you can take the knife.

In other words -- I say "GET THE BASTARD!" instead of "get the knife."

hmm, too bad Nicole didn't know that one.:shock:

 

[zDom]

Move in, and take the attacker out of the fight... If they're down & out -- then if you really want to, you can take the knife.

In other words -- I say "GET THE BASTARD!" instead of "get the knife."

But what are they doing with the knife as you are getting them ... ?

I don't think I want to trade punches for stabs, for example.

Once the knife is out of the picture there WILL be some bastard-getting, no doubt Would be very difficult for me, in that situation, to not cross the line from "self defense" into "punishment."

But getting the knife out of their hand is first priority.

 

[Skpotamus]

Ditto the control the knife first.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/safetyarticles.htm

Darren Lauer did a study where he had 85 police officers participate in scenario based training where they would be attacked with a knife without being forewarned. The suspect would pull the knife, show it to the officer, say "I'm going to kill you pig" then start stabbing and slashing. All of it was taped, and the officers interviewed afterwards.

3/85 saw the knife prior to contact
10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario
72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives

The only officers that "survived" the training were able to get control of their attackers knife arm and then attack the person. Every one else "died".

I teach get ahold of the knife, be it with our "H-block" (our version of the dog catcher), or a V-grip (similar to red zone defense from what I've seen), or the overhead pass for the psycho stab, then attack the other person.

 

[jks9199]

I didn't make something clear; I'm not at all suggesting you don't deal with the hand that's holding a knife or gun. But I do feel that in many cases, too much emphasis is placed on DISARMING the person, leading to wrestling matches over a deadly weapon.

Very bluntly -- they're attacking me with lethal force; I'm going to respond with lethal force. I don't care if the force is a 2x4, a knife, or a gun. Let's skip past all the variants of avoid the situation, run away, etc. You're in a position where the attacker has a knife, and is going to cut or kill you with it. You're close enough to act (this is key factor) but not far enough away to simply escape. I prefer to move in, control the limb holding the weapon, and attack the person -- not try to remove the knife from their hand. That's all. I don't like the emphasis sometimes seen of taking the weapon away; I don't NEED their knife, if I take them out of the fight completely.

 

[Skpotamus]

I didn't make something clear; I'm not at all suggesting you don't deal with the hand that's holding a knife or gun. But I do feel that in many cases, too much emphasis is placed on DISARMING the person, leading to wrestling matches over a deadly weapon.

Very bluntly -- they're attacking me with lethal force; I'm going to respond with lethal force. I don't care if the force is a 2x4, a knife, or a gun. Let's skip past all the variants of avoid the situation, run away, etc. You're in a position where the attacker has a knife, and is going to cut or kill you with it. You're close enough to act (this is key factor) but not far enough away to simply escape. I prefer to move in, control the limb holding the weapon, and attack the person -- not try to remove the knife from their hand. That's all. I don't like the emphasis sometimes seen of taking the weapon away; I don't NEED their knife, if I take them out of the fight completely.

Ah, I think we were saying the same thing, in different ways. I'm not trying to get their knife away from them (I've never been able to pull any disarms off in Force on Force with smaller sized knives with any degree of success), but control their delivery system for that knife (aka, the arm). Once I've gotten the arm under some control so they can't pump it into me or slash me, I'm hitting them with everything I can. (We do a very hard forward drive when dealing with knives, trying to headbutt as we tie up the arm, the techniques get more nasty from there).

 

[jks9199]

Ah, I think we were saying the same thing, in different ways. I'm not trying to get their knife away from them (I've never been able to pull any disarms off in Force on Force with smaller sized knives with any degree of success), but control their delivery system for that knife (aka, the arm). Once I've gotten the arm under some control so they can't pump it into me or slash me, I'm hitting them with everything I can. (We do a very hard forward drive when dealing with knives, trying to headbutt as we tie up the arm, the techniques get more nasty from there).

Yep; similar page. My general choice for dealing unarmed with a weapon is to move DEEP inside, taking control of the arm/arms (level of control can vary from one to three points), and attack the wielder. Too many times, I see defenses that focus on literal disarms end up wasting time fighting over the weapon, and keeping the defender in a dangerous place.

 

[kwaichang]

Well said Skpot and JKS, x block and deep are crucial to most knife attacks. Be aware of the weapon but don't attack the weapon.

 

[still learning]

Hello, NO one knows how a knife attacter will use a knife againist you....

Class room training is NOT the same as on the streets...you mind and body will go into a adrenline stress mode

You will fight the way you were train...and on the streets..this could be different from any class room training...

BEST TO LEAVE AND RUN IF POSSIBLE...OR USE ANYTHING AROUND YOU FOR A WEAPON AND SHIELD.

Expect to get cut and lots of blood (yours)...You will have to put your mind in the attack mode or want to live mode to survive....?

Aloha, (we just get one life only...keep it safe....) RUN AND RUN AND RUN AWAY...)

 

[jks9199]

Hello, NO one knows how a knife attacter will use a knife againist you....

Class room training is NOT the same as on the streets...you mind and body will go into a adrenline stress mode

You will fight the way you were train...and on the streets..this could be different from any class room training...

BEST TO LEAVE AND RUN IF POSSIBLE...OR USE ANYTHING AROUND YOU FOR A WEAPON AND SHIELD.

Expect to get cut and lots of blood (yours)...You will have to put your mind in the attack mode or want to live mode to survive....?

Aloha, (we just get one life only...keep it safe....) RUN AND RUN AND RUN AWAY...)

While we can't say exactly how someone will attack with a knife -- we can look at past attacks and what we see people who attack with knives doing, and make some reasonable guesses.

Based on that, we know that many attackers are going to strike from a position of advantage, with little warning, stabbing or cutting repeatedly. We know that otheres will brandish a knife, and slash or hack, and we know that a few will use the stereotypical icepick stab. We can assume that many people using a knife in an attack paired with a robbery or rape will probably have some familiarity with it's use, and may use different grips or "better" tactics.

And we know that lots of the knife defenses taught in various self defense and police defensive tactics classes aren't very useful in comparison to reported attacks.

 

[allenjp]

As a side note the groundfighting techniques on the third clip are almost comical...good luck throwing someone off of a mount that way!!!

 

[kwaichang]

I carry twenty-three great wounds, all got in battle. Seventy-five men have I killed with my own hands in battle. I scatter, I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor!
.... :duh: .....

oh, that's not me that's .....Auda abu Tayi :wink:

 

[allenjp]

I carry twenty-three great wounds, all got in battle. Seventy-five men have I killed with my own hands in battle. I scatter, I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor!
.... :duh: .....

oh, that's not me that's .....Auda abu Tayi :wink:

Uhhhhh, OK. (huh???)

 

[zDom]

Uhhhhh, OK. (huh???)

What? You don't know who Auda abu Tayi is?

Pfft.



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ok.. i admit it.. i didn't either until 15 minutes ago when I googled him

 

[allenjp]

BEST TO LEAVE AND RUN IF POSSIBLE...OR USE ANYTHING AROUND YOU FOR A WEAPON AND SHIELD

DUDE! You stole my post! I was going to say that not facing a knife UNARMED would be the best thing to do. If that means using sand/dirt, rocks, a stick, a beer bottle (preferably for throwing), a briefcase, a shirt (if you have time to take it off), a piece of rope, anything to at least buy yourself some time to get away. I personally almost never go anywhere without some type of weapon anyway.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Class room training is so..so.. different from the REAL WORLD?

Facing a knife with a real edge? ....a stranger holding the knife? .....

IS YOUR CLASSROOM TRAINING PREPARE YOU FOR THIS? ....sometimes you may have to fight back...and use what you know....

Remember everything may happen very fast and at high speed...in your mind it may be slow motion as the knife enters your body.....

Aloha ( Knife...so much fun?....) CUT you!!!

 

[Skpotamus]

That's why you make your dojo training as realistic as possible. Use scenarios, have your "victim" unaware they are the target of the drill. Make the attacks as realistic as possible.

If you havent' seen it yet, watch the youtube die less often video for ideas on how to make your training realistic

The point of training is to prepare you for a real attack. You're saying you should always run away. What if you're with your wife and child? Are you going to run away and leave them? Or do you think your wife and infant can outrun someone with a knife? That's called a nightmare scenario. Your only choice is to fight so they can get away. If your knife defense training consists solely of runing away, what will you do when you can't? What will you do if the person is too close for you to turn and run? Or they're too close for you to get a weapon to defend yourself?

People have defended themselves from real knife attacks without using weapons, do some digging around for police videos and surveilance camera vids all the reality shows like to play, see what those victimes did and how they survived. Figure out how to use what they did and how to make it work for you. Also, watch what the attackers are doing. In the videos I can find, the attackers all use "caveman" style attacks. Powerful, natural movements. Typically forehand swings (slashes and stabs), or downward (psycho stabs). All of them I saw did the same thing when getting ready to attack (hide the knife arm back and try to grab the person to pump the knife into them, called a sewing machine attack).

Get some good knife training, Dog Brothers, Red Zone, James Keating, Mike Janich, Ray Floro, or some of the others listed in the sticky on the knife defense forums.

Train hard, stay alert and be safe