Knife Defense

MJS

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On another forum which I'm a member of, some clips were posted of knife defense. Some questions arose as to the effectiveness or practicality of what was being shown. For reference, I will link each youtube clip.

Clip 1
[yt]-1nyV_ZtHQ0&eurl=[/yt]


Clip 2
[yt]fEZ6P0S2cas&feature=related[/yt]


Clip 3
[yt]kcwKu_UzwQk&eurl=[/yt]


The knife work for clip 3 does not start until about 30sec into the clip. Additionally, clip 3 does not just focus on blade work, however for this discussion, that is the only part that I'm looking to discuss.

Some of the concerns that came up were too much distance between the opponent and the defender, the risk of being open to counter shots by the opponent, the idea of taking the person to the ground in clip 1, and the use of the under hook grab that we see in clips 1 and 2.


Let the discussion begin!:ultracool
 

KenpoTex

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MJS said:
Some of the concerns that came up were too much distance between the opponent and the defender, the risk of being open to counter shots by the opponent, the idea of taking the person to the ground in clip 1, and the use of the under hook grab that we see in clips 1 and 2.

As we've discussed before, I'm a big fan of the Red Zone/STAB/Dog Catcher type methods, all of which are designed to deal with the "prison shanking, anything goes" type attack and assume a high level of aggression and forward drive on the part of the attacker. I mention the 3 together because regardless of the initial "pickup," they all end up in the outside 2-on-1 type position seen in the first two videos (people tend to gravitate toward the things that work).

My guys and I have spent a fair amount of time working this stuff at full-speed and a pretty high level of contact so I have a few observations to offer regarding the concerns you listed.

"too much distance between opponent and defender" and "risk of being open to counter shots." IMO, the solution to both of these problems is to maintain aggressive forward drive ourselves. Once I've seen my opening and decide to make my move, I don't ever want to allow the other guy to regain initiative. By being aggressive and driving into the guy, I'm going to do a better job of controlling the knife-arm by not allowing that distance between us, I'm also going to be able, to a large extent, to neutralize his attempts at striking with his other hand since it's hard to generate powerful strikes when you're being aggressively driven back and having your face slammed into the floor.

As far as using the 2-on-1/underhook position, I really like this position in this context because it does allow a significant amount of control over the weapon-arm, and if done correctly (once again, with the requisite amount of aggression) will make it difficult for him to strike effectively with his other hand.

I wasn't too impressed with the knife portions in the third clip...it looked to me like the typical "give me the pre-arranged attack so I can do my flashy technique" type stuff...it seemed very "static." I'd like to see that stuff attempted against someone who was pumping the knife in and out and mixing in strikes with the other hand. I have a feeling it wouldn't work as well against a more realistic attack energy.

just my $0.02
 
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MJS

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As we've discussed before, I'm a big fan of the Red Zone/STAB/Dog Catcher type methods, all of which are designed to deal with the "prison shanking, anything goes" type attack and assume a high level of aggression and forward drive on the part of the attacker. I mention the 3 together because regardless of the initial "pickup," they all end up in the outside 2-on-1 type position seen in the first two videos (people tend to gravitate toward the things that work).

Likewise, and I've enjoyed your feedback and discussion with you on those videos! :) I have the 1st Red Zone tape and I really like what is shown. I also have a STAB tape and enjoy Karls views as well. I came across this clip of the Dog Bros. Watch from 5min on. There are parts that are blocked out for a bit, but its visable that they're using the same methods, against people who're being much more aggressive than what we see in clip 3. Funny how those methods are being disregarded by the other forum, yet we have the Dog Bros doing them. Caution: Some strong language and graphic shots in this clip.

My guys and I have spent a fair amount of time working this stuff at full-speed and a pretty high level of contact so I have a few observations to offer regarding the concerns you listed.

"too much distance between opponent and defender" and "risk of being open to counter shots." IMO, the solution to both of these problems is to maintain aggressive forward drive ourselves. Once I've seen my opening and decide to make my move, I don't ever want to allow the other guy to regain initiative. By being aggressive and driving into the guy, I'm going to do a better job of controlling the knife-arm by not allowing that distance between us, I'm also going to be able, to a large extent, to neutralize his attempts at striking with his other hand since it's hard to generate powerful strikes when you're being aggressively driven back and having your face slammed into the floor.

You hit the nail on the head!! Being aggressive is the key, and thats what we see with the RZ/STAB concept.

As far as using the 2-on-1/underhook position, I really like this position in this context because it does allow a significant amount of control over the weapon-arm, and if done correctly (once again, with the requisite amount of aggression) will make it difficult for him to strike effectively with his other hand.

Agreed! Additionally, with the hand pinned to the body the way it is, you also run the possibility of causing some hyper-extension to the opponent.

I wasn't too impressed with the knife portions in the third clip...it looked to me like the typical "give me the pre-arranged attack so I can do my flashy technique" type stuff...it seemed very "static." I'd like to see that stuff attempted against someone who was pumping the knife in and out and mixing in strikes with the other hand. I have a feeling it wouldn't work as well against a more realistic attack energy.

just my $0.02

My thought as well. It was said that what they were doing were random attacks. While that may be the case, I didn't see have the aggression that I saw in the other clips, including the DB clip. Now, working a flow drill has its pros, but those ideas need to be worked into what you're more likely to see. The other hand, as you mention, is something that is often neglected. Hell, I do drill in Arnis in which my other hand is clearing the other persons, so whats to say that I couldn't include a shot as well. :)
 

KenpoTex

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Likewise, and I've enjoyed your feedback and discussion with you on those videos! :) I have the 1st Red Zone tape and I really like what is shown. I also have a STAB tape and enjoy Karls views as well. I came across this clip of the Dog Bros. Watch from 5min on. There are parts that are blocked out for a bit, but its visable that they're using the same methods, against people who're being much more aggressive than what we see in clip 3. Funny how those methods are being disregarded by the other forum, yet we have the Dog Bros doing them. Caution: Some strong language and graphic shots in this clip.

Just for everyone's information...The DVD that the above mentioned clip was taken from is "Die Less Often" Vol. I which was a joint project between Gabe Suarez (a well-known firearms instructor who has quite a bit of martial-arts experience of his own) and Marc Denny (co-founder of the Dog Brothers). It is definately worth the price ($70 or so for 3 disks).

In fact, I really think this particular set should be mandatory for anyone who claims to train for self-defense because they "myth bust" many popular techniques and tactics.
Since the DVD was shot during a seminar, you get to see people from a wide range of training backgrounds (including many .mil and LEO types) attempting to use their training against a very realistic knife attack (I say attempting because the "traditional" or "mainstream" methods failed in the face of this level of intensity). Then you get to see them progress through the material being taught, and prevailing against the attacker.

Even if the "martial-artists" dismiss Gabe as some sort of gun toting knuckle-dragger, they can't say much when someone with Marc Denny's background is involved with the project. Vol. 2 has been out for several months now...I don't have it yet but it's on my list. (note: I'm not affiliated with them in any way, I just like to promote those who are putting out solid material).
 

Ahriman

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From these clips I missed what I miss in most cases - real aggression from the attacker. Stomps on the defendant's foot, low side kicks to the knees, headbutts, groin kicks - all these and more could've been made in those situations. This of course may be the result of focusing on the knife and on showing the concepts, in which case it's not a problem, but still...
...
Aggression is key in fighting, keeping the initiative (or the vor for us WMA-based people) is an absolute must.
...
Mr Suarez and Mr Denny surely know what they're talking about - I'm planning to buy their DVDs, I've been planning this for a long time but $70 is maybe cheap for you, for me it's the price of food for a month or so. :S (here my cca $5000 yearly income is considered rather good - quite some of Hungarian families-of-four have to make it from that amount)
 

Deaf Smith

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You know, I was going down the list after watching the videos thinking Red Zone.... and sure enough Ken mentioned it.

Unlike the videos, and attacker won't wait after you grab him and let you do your gig. There will be one heck of a tussle! That and there being several kinds of attacks it's best to just have one or two simple methods that work for YOU. It might mean dragging them down Red Zone style, or trapping the arm Krav Maga style. Or simply bringing your hands together with a 'V" were then thumbs meet, and trapping the wrist.

But the thing is, keep it simple and look for the technique that will work on someone who definaly is going to argue about it.

Deaf
 

sgtmac_46

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As we've discussed before, I'm a big fan of the Red Zone/STAB/Dog Catcher type methods, all of which are designed to deal with the "prison shanking, anything goes" type attack and assume a high level of aggression and forward drive on the part of the attacker. I mention the 3 together because regardless of the initial "pickup," they all end up in the outside 2-on-1 type position seen in the first two videos (people tend to gravitate toward the things that work).

My guys and I have spent a fair amount of time working this stuff at full-speed and a pretty high level of contact so I have a few observations to offer regarding the concerns you listed.

"too much distance between opponent and defender" and "risk of being open to counter shots." IMO, the solution to both of these problems is to maintain aggressive forward drive ourselves. Once I've seen my opening and decide to make my move, I don't ever want to allow the other guy to regain initiative. By being aggressive and driving into the guy, I'm going to do a better job of controlling the knife-arm by not allowing that distance between us, I'm also going to be able, to a large extent, to neutralize his attempts at striking with his other hand since it's hard to generate powerful strikes when you're being aggressively driven back and having your face slammed into the floor.

As far as using the 2-on-1/underhook position, I really like this position in this context because it does allow a significant amount of control over the weapon-arm, and if done correctly (once again, with the requisite amount of aggression) will make it difficult for him to strike effectively with his other hand.

I wasn't too impressed with the knife portions in the third clip...it looked to me like the typical "give me the pre-arranged attack so I can do my flashy technique" type stuff...it seemed very "static." I'd like to see that stuff attempted against someone who was pumping the knife in and out and mixing in strikes with the other hand. I have a feeling it wouldn't work as well against a more realistic attack energy.

just my $0.02
Yeah, it seems as though he is teaching to presume that the attack is going to be some wide, swinging stick like ark, and not a tight pumping/sewing machine action unstitching your internal organs.

What it looks like the guy has done is take the dynamics of a stick and try to transfer it directly to a knife.....failing to grasp that unlike a stick, you don't need kinetic energy and large arking motions to KILL with a blade.....a blade you simply keep sticking it in until the opponent is dead or no longer an issue. And human beings seem instinctively to pump the blade, not swing it in long arks.

I like Crafty Dog and Gabe Suarez's program......it deals with the issue of the pump. I think it may have been Crafty, but i'm not certain, who pointed out that many people want to look at fighting as if it were ballet or a choreographed dance routine.....when in reality these type of fights are much more like impromptu football games, with bodies slamming together!

That seems to sum it up with what i've seen....take two or more guys playing full contact football without equipment, throw in a knife, and you have a street or prison knife fight.
 

sgtmac_46

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From these clips I missed what I miss in most cases - real aggression from the attacker. Stomps on the defendant's foot, low side kicks to the knees, headbutts, groin kicks - all these and more could've been made in those situations. This of course may be the result of focusing on the knife and on showing the concepts, in which case it's not a problem, but still...
...
Aggression is key in fighting, keeping the initiative (or the vor for us WMA-based people) is an absolute must.
...
Mr Suarez and Mr Denny surely know what they're talking about - I'm planning to buy their DVDs, I've been planning this for a long time but $70 is maybe cheap for you, for me it's the price of food for a month or so. :S (here my cca $5000 yearly income is considered rather good - quite some of Hungarian families-of-four have to make it from that amount)
I highly recommend Suarez and Denny's program/DVDs on the subject.....they teach simplicity, and then train it hard!
 

sgtmac_46

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Hey, Kenpo.......speaking of the Dog Brothers, do you think there's much interest in the Springfield area for a Crafty Dog seminar? I'm going to try to make it to the one in Bloomington, IL. in October, and Dan Inosanto in Oklahoma in November, but it seems like I have to travel all over the country to get to some of the better seminars.

Down my way we don't have enough interest to make it worth trying to host a seminar, but if there's enough interest in your direction I could fill two or three slots at any seminar someone could host....hint, hint, hint....;)
 

KenpoTex

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I think it may have been Crafty, but i'm not certain, who pointed out that many people want to look at fighting as if it were ballet or a choreographed dance routine.....when in reality these type of fights are much more like impromptu football games, with bodies slamming together!

That seems to sum it up with what i've seen....take two or more guys playing full contact football without equipment, throw in a knife, and you have a street or prison knife fight.
I do believe that was Marc...he also compared the attack energy of a realistic attacker to "a crazed chimpanzee with a spike" :D

Hey, Kenpo.......speaking of the Dog Brothers, do you think there's much interest in the Springfield area for a Crafty Dog seminar? I'm going to try to make it to the one in Bloomington, IL. in October, and Dan Inosanto in Oklahoma in November, but it seems like I have to travel all over the country to get to some of the better seminars.

Down my way we don't have enough interest to make it worth trying to host a seminar, but if there's enough interest in your direction I could fill two or three slots at any seminar someone could host....hint, hint, hint....;)
PM Sent.
 

Mike Hamer

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I disagree with the first clip when he says the reverse grip is always what a skilled knife fighter would use. I think the forward grip can be just as effective!
 

Phadrus00

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Mike,

Thanks for posting up the links and starting an interesting discussion!

So my perspective is as an FMA practicioner and a Silat Player so I am biased in that respect.

The first two videos made me feel uncomfortable not so mch because of the jamming technique.. I thought that was pretty solid and have several similar entries in both FMA and Silat. The stuff I got wiggly about is what came next. In the first clip the guy took his attacker to the ground with the knife still engaged. At several points his femoral arteries were very close to the weapon and could have easily been cut.

In the second clip the action did not go tot the ground but there was clearly the concept of "struggling" with the knife in play. As a previous poster pointed out, the blade requires almost No kinetic energy to be lethal. one short cut to the throat and it's over OR again a cut inside the leg and you bleed out. Wrestling with someone with an edged weapon is a bad idea!

I actually liked the third clip (again..my bias) as they were taking a more familiar approach to the knife for me. the key thing they were demonstrating was sectoring to the outside, away from the blade and trying to incapacitate the opponent directly or incapacitate the hand holding the weapon and by extension the opponent.

I wont argue that taking an agressive stance and pushing hard is an effective way to overwhelm your opponent. It is. But given the lethality of the knife it is really rolling the dice somewhat. If the opponent gts in one lucky shot you are dead. You can't shake off an arterial cut.

I have never been in a knife fight but I have been cut many times during practice and I have an appreciation for the effectiveness of the blade. Several of my Instructors have had direct expereince with the blade and their advice has always been pretty clear. Keep it simple, immobilize the weapon hand and disarm them as quickly as possible, even if you have to take damage in doing so. Don't let the blade stay in play as it is too easy to slip in and kill you.

Regards,
Rob
 

pesilat

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I disagree with the first clip when he says the reverse grip is always what a skilled knife fighter would use. I think the forward grip can be just as effective!

In fact, as someone who trains with blades regularly and has trained with a lot of top notch blade people from around the world, I would say that the default grip tends to be the forward grip.

Both grips have advantages and disadvantages. The reverse grip is good for concealment and for power thrusts - but doesn't provide much more reach than your fist. The forward grip has a longer reach and is often more versatile (though this depends to some extent on the person using it) but it doesn't conceal quite as easily.

All the blade guys I know, though, agree that ultimately there isn't a "preference." However the knife comes into the grip is pretty much how it will be used. Whether it's in forward grip or reverse grip with the edge facing toward me or away from me (assuming it's not a double edged blade) that's generally how I'll use it. I've trained with all of those so it doesn't really matter to me. Changing grips in the midst of a fight is generally not necessary or particularly advantageous and that means it's generally a waste of motion/time. Also, if you haven't trained changing grips a lot then that's when you're most likely to drop the blade.

Another mark in favor of forward grip as a "primary" is the near ubiquity (at least here in the States) of the "tactical folder." Most of these are designed to draw and open into a forward grip. Also, in most daily activities that require blade usage - cooking, opening packages, cutting cordage, etc. - forward grip is used. Often it's used in these functions because it provides a higher degree of control in most situations. Point is, though, most people (including trained blade people) will have spent as much or more time in their life using a blade in forward grip than in reverse grip - there will be exceptions, of course, but I would make an educated guess that this is the way the statistics would lean.

Mike
 

Hawke

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I'm a newbie so take all this with a grain of salt.

I have only seen the first two clips so far.

Not much to add.

Clip #1: Notice the defender try to control the knife arm, but not the meat of the thumb. He will have some serious health issues from an aggressive attacker.

Clip#2: Notice that the defender controls the knife arm AND the meat of the thumb.

I highly recommend Die Less Often 1 & 2. DLO 3 hopefully will be out this year. More advance students will get more out of the series because they will know what to look for. Nothing is 100%. These techniques are to increase your probability for survival so you will die less often.

DLO 1 - knife vs gun
DLO 2 - gun vs gun/knife
DLO 3 - empty hand vs knife

I am so looking forward to DLO 3.
 

kwaichang

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You know, eons ago I felt fairly comfortable with my knife defense work.
I could even run away then; faster than most.
Now it's brain or S&W.:shock:
 

sgtmac_46

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I'm a newbie so take all this with a grain of salt.

I have only seen the first two clips so far.

Not much to add.

Clip #1: Notice the defender try to control the knife arm, but not the meat of the thumb. He will have some serious health issues from an aggressive attacker.

Clip#2: Notice that the defender controls the knife arm AND the meat of the thumb.

I highly recommend Die Less Often 1 & 2. DLO 3 hopefully will be out this year. More advance students will get more out of the series because they will know what to look for. Nothing is 100%. These techniques are to increase your probability for survival so you will die less often.

DLO 1 - knife vs gun
DLO 2 - gun vs gun/knife
DLO 3 - empty hand vs knife

I am so looking forward to DLO 3.
You are absolutely correct.......Marc and Gabe's material is TOP SHELF first rate stuff.....state of the art and I too am eagerly awaiting DLO 3.
 

sgtmac_46

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I do want to point out one thing.......in Rey Galangs book, 'Masters of the Blade', W. Hock Hochheim makes a convincing argument that we should not discount a knife disarm technique solely on it's failure in the prison type pumping machine situations. He argues that, though it's important to train for that kind of 'worst case scenario', there are other situations where some of those other techniques are very effective and applicable in knife defense.
 

arnisador

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I think that's a good point. As I read the papers and speak with LEOs I hear of many cases where a spouse or parent picks up a kitchen knife in a fight. A local LEO had to defend against the classic "Psycho"-style over head attack from a dazed woman in her own kitchen. She raised the arm then froze and he just punched her in the face. She dropped the knife. All sorts of things happen.

By the way, Masters of the Blade has a lot of good segments in it. Not all are winners, but overall it's an excellent resource for those interested in the FMA angle on knives.
 

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