KKW vs. WTF?

dortiz

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Sad, Just like when you hear about a clergy member. Is the Church all bad? Is all Kukkiwon TKD spoiled? No.
In this example do you think knew. probably not.
Now is this a good starting point to recommend that Kukkiwon revokes ranks for holders convicted of said things? I am all for it and it would make a good mission. At the same time it seems that laws deal with these issues and its tough for organizations and schools to police. Now should the college revoke his diploma? Maybe yes, but can they fullfill their mission and handle staffing a team to manage this X factor.
Brass tax is you run a strong organization, teach and promote and try to attract and retain good people. Sadly some are not.

Dave O.
 

Errant108

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I am aware of that, as doubtless T/F is. If I am not mistaken, Kukkiwon would transliterate to nation+power+association.

Nope. Gukgiwon translates as National Technique Association. The 기 is 技, not 氣. It is the same gi as in makgi, chagi, etc.

But the word kook or kooky in western usage does not carry that meaning.

And my warning is that mocking a Korean association with the term "kook" is likely to be taken as racial offensive by some, and with a very good, logical reason.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Let us be realistic about the Kukkiwon. They are a certification body that is more than just a papermill. That is their primary function. They are not an enforcement body and rely upon the funds generated by new dan apps, all of which come to them through fourth dan and higher members.

The Kukkiwon does provide a curriculum and provides a framework around which a school can build. They also provide an instructor certification program.

Thus, the Kukkiwon does more than just certify people, but that is their primary function. All other functions exist to support that end.

Daniel
 

troubleenuf

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Yes but even the church removes clergy when something like this happens. They dont keep promoting these people like the Kukkiwon does. The fact is that the Kukkiwon dosnt care WHO the person is that it certifies, it only cares that someone recommends him/her (and even that "someone" has no background check done) and pays them money to do so. How can this make them a strong organization? They have minimal requirements for promotion, no standards or background for who they promote and lets face it, if you have the right connections and the right amount of cash you can promote to pretty much any rank you want.
Lets take this to the next level... if YOU are supporting the Kukkiwon (if you send them money for certification you ARE supporting them) and they have certified as Instructors (of little children no less) people who are known child molesters, rapists, ect.... are YOU not part of THAT persons organization? After all you would BOTH be supporting the Kukkiwon would you not?


Sad, Just like when you hear about a clergy member. Is the Church all bad? Is all Kukkiwon TKD spoiled? No.
In this example do you think knew. probably not.
Now is this a good starting point to recommend that Kukkiwon revokes ranks for holders convicted of said things? I am all for it and it would make a good mission. At the same time it seems that laws deal with these issues and its tough for organizations and schools to police. Now should the college revoke his diploma? Maybe yes, but can they fullfill their mission and handle staffing a team to manage this X factor.
Brass tax is you run a strong organization, teach and promote and try to attract and retain good people. Sadly some are not.

Dave O.
 

miguksaram

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If the truth be told, the Kukkiwon dosnt care a less what you teach as long as you send in $$$ for certificates. Not anything against those who tested in Las Vegas (thought about it myself) but take a look at it from this view.
They tested people that the didnt know, didnt do background checks on, and didnt know the following:
How many times the actually worked out... every day, once a week, once a month, never....
If they were school principles, congressmen, child molesters, rapists, ect.
If they were legitimate martial artists or someone who just wanted a piece of paper to make themselves feel good.

How many organizations do you know of that do background checks on their members? How many organizations do you know ask the applicants workout regiment?

KKW required a set curriculum to be adhere to and performed at the test. If they knew it they passed. If you didn't, you failed. Just like in regular school, your teacher didn't care if you studied every day, once a week, once a month, never. They didn't care if you crammed a whole semester of learning in just 1 hour. In the end you either knew it or you didn't.

You also wont see anyone from the Kukkiwon doing the following:
Visit your school to make sure you are teaching Kukkiwon TKD or "Joes kicking stuff".
Revoke or otherwise take action against one of its "certified" instructors. They have no dispinairy policies in place and no matter what "rumors" you hear about revoking certificates it just dosnt happen.

Again, what orgs do you know of that do this?
 
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miguksaram

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Yes but even the church removes clergy when something like this happens. They dont keep promoting these people like the Kukkiwon does.
Yes they remove them from one church and place them in another.

The fact is that the Kukkiwon dosnt care WHO the person is that it certifies, it only cares that someone recommends him/her (and even that "someone" has no background check done) and pays them money to do so. How can this make them a strong organization?

Does your instructor do a background check on you when you promote for your next belt for the school?

They have minimal requirements for promotion, no standards or background for who they promote and lets face it, if you have the right connections and the right amount of cash you can promote to pretty much any rank you want.

So are you asking KKW to dictate how individual schools should teach their entire curriculum. They should dictate what is allowed in your testings and what is not allowed in your testings? They should dictate who you can and cannot promote site unseen?


Lets take this to the next level... if YOU are supporting the Kukkiwon (if you send them money for certification you ARE supporting them) and they have certified as Instructors (of little children no less) people who are known child molesters, rapists, ect.... are YOU not part of THAT persons organization? After all you would BOTH be supporting the Kukkiwon would you not?
First and foremost, if they are known child molesters then the problem you need to address is why isn't your local law enforcement stepping in and arresting them? If you are going to take it to the next level then why stop at the org. Since YOU support martial arts and martial arts has a known child molester are you a part of that culture? After all BOTH of you are martial artists.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Yes they remove them from one church and place them in another.
Sadly true. As a practicing Roman Catholic, I feel that the Church needs to learn how to 'forgive' without forgetting and then send such individuals straight to the authorities and once they have served their sentence, never put them in a position where they are around kids ever again. I am sure that trash collection is a meretorious act if done in the Vatican.

One major difference between the church and the Kukkiwon is this: a priest who molests a child is an actual employee and official representative of the church, while the same molester as an instructor with a Kukkiwon certification simply means that he or she learned the Kukkiwon's material, paid a testing fee, and passed a test. They are not in the employ of the Kukkiwon and are not an official representative thereof.

The Kukkiwon revoking certification for criminal activity is a bit like a high school or college revoking a diploma or a degree because of an alumni's bad behavior.

Daniel
 

Errant108

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Yes but even the church removes clergy when something like this happens. They dont keep promoting these people like the Kukkiwon does. The fact is that the Kukkiwon dosnt care WHO the person is that it certifies, it only cares that someone recommends him/her (and even that "someone" has no background check done) and pays them money to do so. How can this make them a strong organization? They have minimal requirements for promotion, no standards or background for who they promote and lets face it, if you have the right connections and the right amount of cash you can promote to pretty much any rank you want.
Lets take this to the next level... if YOU are supporting the Kukkiwon (if you send them money for certification you ARE supporting them) and they have certified as Instructors (of little children no less) people who are known child molesters, rapists, ect.... are YOU not part of THAT persons organization? After all you would BOTH be supporting the Kukkiwon would you not?

The Kukkiwon is not a law enforcement organization.

It is not the job of the Kukkiwon to investigate & prosecute child molesters. It is the job of the police to investigate them. It is the job of the judicial system to prosecute them. It is the job of the corrections system to house them.
 

miguksaram

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The Kukkiwon revoking certification for criminal activity is a bit like a high school or college revoking a diploma or a degree because of an alumni's bad behavior.

Daniel

Though I agree it doesn't do anything to that particular person's knowledge or character, it would show that KKW does not condone that type of behavior nor do they want to be assoicated with that person. I think this would be a slightly positive direction than to do nothing at all.
 

IcemanSK

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SJON

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For those who havent read it, among other things not relevant to the thread, it says that:

the author never encountered anything other than pure sport TKD with token patterns for grading
all the schools she trained at were practically day-care centres, with the exception of the university gyms, which were very hardcore (PE-wise) sport gyms
coloured belt grading was based entirely on time, not on ability
KKW BB grading was a joke

I very much recommend this book, not only for the information about the real state of mainstream TKD in Korea, but because it is very readable and culturally interesting.
 

miguksaram

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I'm reading this book now. A very interesting & well-written piece on TKD in Korea from a foreigner's perspective.

This brings up a good point...a foreigner's perspective. Martial arts was introduced to America, for the most part, by ex military. These guys were tough as nails and trained their students as military. I wonder if they learned that way or did they just make it out to be harder over in Asia than it really was?

The aspects of most schools being "day cares" is not a shocking one. As TKD is pretty much a Korean past time for the youth, as baseball is for us, they will have a bunch of younger kids in there as an after school program. When you have a school on pretty much every corner, then you have to supplement a lot of income with having the kiddies around.

I believe many of us have this misconception that training in Asia is going to be tough as nails, no mercy training. They are no different that what we do here. They have a business to run and they have people coming in to join for all sorts of reasons. In the upper grades high school and college, that is when you will see more hard core training because they are gearing up to be national and olympic fighters.

Perhaps we have put martial arts in Asia on a higher pedestal than it needed to be.
 

IcemanSK

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This brings up a good point...a foreigner's perspective. Martial arts was introduced to America, for the most part, by ex military. These guys were tough as nails and trained their students as military. I wonder if they learned that way or did they just make it out to be harder over in Asia than it really was?

The aspects of most schools being "day cares" is not a shocking one. As TKD is pretty much a Korean past time for the youth, as baseball is for us, they will have a bunch of younger kids in there as an after school program. When you have a school on pretty much every corner, then you have to supplement a lot of income with having the kiddies around.

I believe many of us have this misconception that training in Asia is going to be tough as nails, no mercy training. They are no different that what we do here. They have a business to run and they have people coming in to join for all sorts of reasons. In the upper grades high school and college, that is when you will see more hard core training because they are gearing up to be national and olympic fighters.

Perhaps we have put martial arts in Asia on a higher pedestal than it needed to be.

A few years ago, I met a college-aged American studying in Korea on another board. He was training in TKD at college in Korea, but was quite disappointed with the lack of respect of the Korean TKD students (for the Art, their instructors, their uniforms etc). He certainly didn't want to test at the KKW. I remember him saying in an email to me, "Why would I go wait 2-4 hours for a 10 minute test at the KKW when I can wait until I get back home & have a 3-4 hour test in front of my own instructor? I know I've have earned that belt!" THAT was a dedicated TKDoan!

It goes to individual instructors & what they demand of their students. And it always will be.
 

troubleenuf

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Last time I was at the Kukkiwon they had an instructors course going on. During break all these guys came poring out the door and lit up outside the Kukkiwon. Smoking like crazy... Pretty weird site when you consider what many of us think the Kukkiwon stands for.


A few years ago, I met a college-aged American studying in Korea on another board. He was training in TKD at college in Korea, but was quite disappointed with the lack of respect of the Korean TKD students (for the Art, their instructors, their uniforms etc). He certainly didn't want to test at the KKW. I remember him saying in an email to me, "Why would I go wait 2-4 hours for a 10 minute test at the KKW when I can wait until I get back home & have a 3-4 hour test in front of my own instructor? I know I've have earned that belt!" THAT was a dedicated TKDoan!

It goes to individual instructors & what they demand of their students. And it always will be.
 

miguksaram

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Last time I was at the Kukkiwon they had an instructors course going on. During break all these guys came poring out the door and lit up outside the Kukkiwon. Smoking like crazy... Pretty weird site when you consider what many of us think the Kukkiwon stands for.

It stands for No-Smoking?

Again, this goes back to my point of us putting the Asians masters on some sort of pedelstal. They are human and have human flaws like the rest of us. I was told that back in the days, American instructors would smoke while teaching in the class. At least these guys stepped out.
 

clfsean

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It stands for No-Smoking?

Again, this goes back to my point of us putting the Asians masters on some sort of pedelstal. They are human and have human flaws like the rest of us. I was told that back in the days, American instructors would smoke while teaching in the class. At least these guys stepped out.

Wait until you're at the Shaolin Temple watching "monks" stroll around with cell phones & their parking lot (yep, their private one) is jammed with MB's & other fine autos. The smokes you can get past pretty quick...

Or you're playing hands with a "living legend" in China & he's got a cigarette in his mouth while stomping a mudhole in your chest & asking where you're taking him for drinks & other "activities" that evening.

That's when the 2x4 of truth is firmly planted on your forehead... yep, he pees standing up like me & is just a normal guy like me... only better at this than me. Nothing much more...
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Last time I was at the Kukkiwon they had an instructors course going on. During break all these guys came poring out the door and lit up outside the Kukkiwon. Smoking like crazy... Pretty weird site when you consider what many of us think the Kukkiwon stands for.
From what I understand (could be wrong), more Asians smoke than Americans.

Daniel
 

dortiz

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Well, I wish I could be all high and mighty but sadly when I was 20 I too smoked and trained and enjoyed a drink or two and cigarette with my Korean Master.
We trained hard and I mean hard but hey back then its what we did. He has passed on and I got smart about health along time ago.

Dave O.

p.s. too funny because we have a smoker in our office. Everybody else used to smoke years ago and has quit and is just shocked that folks still smoke at all.
 

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