Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
What do you you mean you trained ITF alone? You don't have any lineage? No instructor?
Kicking with rechamber vs no rechamber
- Thread starter Equilibrum32
- Start date
So the answer is you're going to dodge the question. So I can only believe it's because you have no experience and are just making it up as you go along.
At least now it'll be easy to know how seriously to take you.
Set up another strawman, kid. Nobody ever said forms teach everything. Forms are A teaching tool. Not the ONLY teaching tool.
Is English a second language for you? That wold go a ways towards explaining your lack of understanding of perfectly straightforward sentences.
I trained ITF alone. Meaning I did not study other styles at the same time. Given that I followed that statement with "I trained KKW and MDK at the same time" it seems pretty plain. Especially when I finished with "And I teach them all at the same time. And nobody has any problems with confused muscle memory." it seems pretty much impossible to misunderstand.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You are confusing the importance of technique over concept a bit.
Concept, timing and knowledge of how to make your body functional under a bunch of different conditions is the most important skill.
Then you will find every kick is thrown in a slightly different way depending on what is going on at the time.
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
You are a long-time TaeKwonDo instructor and author who put a "disagree" on "forms don't teach you to hit a moving target". I just want to make that absolutely clear here.
We were the discussing the context of beginners. The fact of the matter is that forms will have very little impact on who does better in sparring. I'm a perfect example of that being that I had the worst form, yet was the best at sparring in the group. I was not a wonderboy (no pun intended) in ITF sparring either.
There is no correlation between who does forms better and who fights better. Fighting is mental, forms is physical.
I did not interpret your ITF statement correctly. I wanted to be clear about that though since there are grandmasters who never took formal classes (Hwang Jang Lee being one of them) and simply attended gradings.
It did not seem likely but I wanted to be sure.
Of course. Because you're setting up a strawman. I don't think anyone ever said (and I know I absolutely never said) that forms teach everything. I disagree with using strawman arguments. Doing so basically just means you don't have an actual argument.
Incorrect. There isn't ALWAYS a correlation, but often there is. In my personal experience, I'd say the correlation exists more often than not.
And of course, you still haven't answered my question. Dodging questions, like using strawmen, tells people a fair bit about you.
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
Let me rephrase that. In a highly specialized sparring form demanding flexibility, such as the World TaeKwondo, having good form matters. In a freer fighting rule set, however, the importance of forms goes radically down, if it's full contact stipulations.
But, it's still a fact that I would kick the butt out of a highly flexible KKW guy who never sparred a day in his life and spent all his time on forms. Even someone who grows up to become Olympic champion is still highly unlikely to do much to me day 1.
A lot of TMA instructors do not believe this. They see forms and being able to fight as the same thing. They don't have their students fight and instead employ no contact nonsense. Yet they still promote it as self defense.
Not really. As I said before, if you're not using what forms teach when sparring, then you haven't really learned.
You seem to be confused about the difference between fact and your (uneducated and uninformed) opinion.
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
We have an ITF channel on youtube where the instructors plainly states: "there is no connection between ITF forms and ITF sparring".
That might not be true of the KKW but you made a universal claim.
He's just wrong then. Let's ask an acknowledged subject-matter expert.
@Earl Weiss is an ITF 9th Dan. Master Weiss, do you think there is a complete disconnect between forms and sparring?
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
0:25
"There is no correlation between patterns and sparring, even though some people might think there is a link there"
"There is no correlation between patterns and sparring, even though some people might think there is a link there"
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
I don't see any beyond putting your leg up and stretching it out. Posture is different, speed is different, stance is different, guard is different. Punching is of course completely different
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
I'll also add that doing forms would have zero impact on my sparring, assuming I am in exactly the same shape in both scenarios and train equally much.
If I only sparred, I would have been better at sparring. No doubt.
If I only sparred, I would have been better at sparring. No doubt.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
"Complete Disconnect" is a matter of degree and a tough call. The Chang Hon system has "The Cycle of TK-D" This contains several separate elements and among them are Fundamental Movement, Sparring, Self Defense, Dallyon (Conditioning of various types) developing better physicality through patterns will aid in sparring. Developing better physicality through sparring will aid in pattern performance. Now, having said all that perhaps the better question is not just the connection/ disconnect between patterns and Sparring, but also patterns an Self Defense. Things patterns can do for Self defense training unlike conventional sparring is help train you to use: that maximum power technique when available, techniques illegal for sparring, and adjust your focus for multiple opponents approaching from various vectors. So, just like boxers do roadwork, or speedbag work, the elements benefit each other. What degree of connection this is I will leave for each to decide.
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
I think a deeper question that you the instructor will have to answer is: given the great disparity between forms and sparring, which should one ideally apply in self defense?
They are totally different systems of combat and you can't do both at the same time. There's a difference in footwork and range, for starters. You can't collar pull and punch if you are blitzing in and out.
You can do both, but which of the two is the go-to system? Should you grab the collar and punch, or should you blitz in and out? There is no philosophy to this at all.
While BJJ has tons of flaws, they do have a very clear system for each step. Takedown, controlling the legs, passing the guard, apply the submission.
TKD does not have that. It's just all out there...
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
My answer is to do the sparring mechanics. You should not grab the collar of someone who might be a grappler... But you can always do sparring mechanics regardless of who it is that you are defending yourself against. And you avoid getting stabbed.
Simple.
Simple.
Equilibrum32
Yellow Belt
The opponent can try grabbing the leg of someone who can truly kick. It's not possible. It's like running into a gunshot. You can't both parry the strike and absorb it at the same time.
I've tried.
I've tried.
This inability to distinguish between things that YOU can't do and things NOBODY can do seems to be chronic.
I've stayed quiet here since I don't train TKD. But I've tried that as well, and succeeded. There's plenty of videos out there of people both grabbing and parrying kicks, depending on the type of kick.
I think there's a larger question here. From my (non-TKD experience), the movements in forms are movements you can fight with, and sparring is practicing fighting. Therefore, you can use those movements when you spar.
If for whatever reason you aren't, you have to figure out: Is it a systemic issue (e.g. is the system teaching unrealistic forms, and/or unrealistic sparring rules), a teaching issue (e.g. is the teacher not teaching you the movements properly/their purposes, and/or not encouraging you to try them out in sparring), or is it a personal issue (e.g. are you not attempting those movements in sparring, and instead are focusing on other non-form techniques, or just going by instinct)?
I don't know TKD, your teacher/dojang, or you so I can't answer which of the three it is, but you should probably make sure you understand where the issue is first.
