FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Yeah, every time I do that when it matters my instructor slides over and punches me in the chest because I left myself exposed...
Kicking with a punch
- Thread starter DArnold
- Start date
Yeah, every time I do that when it matters my instructor slides over and punches me in the chest because I left myself exposed...
Two things...
1. This makes perfect sense if you are grappling with your opponent in some way. Let say you have one of his weapons and you are making space to kick but do not want to disengage the grapple.
2. The "punch" isn't a punch. Its a retreating block that throws a low kick in as a response. Whatever follow up movement comes after is bridged by that kick.
1. This makes perfect sense if you are grappling with your opponent in some way. Let say you have one of his weapons and you are making space to kick but do not want to disengage the grapple.
2. The "punch" isn't a punch. Its a retreating block that throws a low kick in as a response. Whatever follow up movement comes after is bridged by that kick.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
that is also an option. but you can do it together.
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 712
- Reaction score
- 17
DArnold,
lol, sir, I love the naive approach you use as you throw out questions like this (just like you mentioned in your PM to me - - I'm sorry, I couldn't resist - you suckered me in! lol). I can just see the glossy eyed, innocent look on your face as you asked this question, followed by the gentle smile of someone who is really enjoying this! (of course, you know I mean that with all sincerity, and utmost respect)
As you know, DArnold, there is a difference between those "instructors" who learn from books, and those who really learn.
Interesting though, I have never heard it described as a "punch," but I suppose there are many different ways of doing things. From what I have been taught (and this is just my personal experience - so don't take it as gospel... not that anyone would), it is a backfist technique, and it is not intended to strike anything. Just as valid as the physics and mechanics of internal muscle stability through reaction force (muscles that push and pull against each other), the extended hand (along with its reactionary hand), used with a side kick is designed to stabilize the upper torso, making the thrust of a linear side kick more powerful as well as controlled.
In conjunction with Isaac Newton's third Law of Reaction Force, the physical motion of the two arms moving in opposite directions around the torso (just like the reaction hand of a basic punch) creates opposing forces like that of a spinning top where the momentum of the object forces out equally in all directions creating centrifugal tendencies that counter each other, thus stabilizing the spinning which prevents it from falling down. Of course, "reaction force" is a natural part of all motion that we can neither avoid, nor turn on and off, but there are extensions of the use of reactionary forces through physical application, and scientific principles of technique.
In other words, reaction forces are occurring multiple times, on various scales, simultaneously in every movement of your body. For a good example of total body usage of internal reaction force, consider a cat that is held upside down and dropped. The unique twisting and torquing of the cats internal structure allows it to flip over in mid air without touching any outside object, and land on its feet.
In addition to internal reactionary forces, any impact between two objects creates another phase of reaction force when an applied force, or striking force is met with an equal and opposite return of reaction force (a ball hits a wall, it doesn't just drop straight to the ground). This reaction force is a repulsion and detraction of the applied force, working to spoil, or counter the striking force, but proper stability, stance, support, and even intentional reactionary movements of the torso and both arms can help to reinforce the technique, preventing the escape and dissipation of the reaction force.
This, of course, is not the only way to do the Taekwondo side kick, as many experts know that the initial fighting kicks in street combat are done with the guards held up, and not extended to expose the chest as they are in forms. Forms practice is designed (in the Taekwondo curriculum) not for a hidden meaning of self defense and secret codes, but to practice an early stage of technical training which employs the more powerful finishing moves.
While we can adapt, and modify these applications for variations of grabbing an opponent's body, blocking other attacks, or striking while kicking, there is no hidden meaning in the Taekwondo Poomsae by specific intent of their creators. It is a side kick, with a reactionary motion of a backfist extended over the leg, and the opposite hand drawn to the hip. Placing the other hand in a guard position is one option for combat, but it is not the move being practiced in Taekwondo Taegeuk (or Palgwe for that matter). Self defense applications of grabbing, or secondary hand strikes are optional add-ons with intermediate and advanced training.
- Thread Starter
- #26
Sir,
Ok, I wasn't delving into the physics but you were dead on.
Now in one part you state that these application can be, "...adapted for vairiation...". And I must confess I am ignorant on the Poomsae's as I practice the Ch'ang Hon. If the Poomsae's are a backfist then that is cool! But in the Ch'ang Hon system they are a punch.
As Last Fearner correctly deduced I used this as a mental test to those posting on the board. There is no one correct answer as most juniors look for. Yes patterns are set in stone and you should perform them the way your instructor tells you to.
But as a Black belt does it really matter as you should be able to do anything you mentioned. Punch, grab, backfist, knife hand... with the kick. Yes you should.
The answer is you punch at any target that would be High level at the same time you kick at any target middle. (It could be two opponents) Conceptual learning is sometimes hard for juniors as they think that the techniques are based around single examples and get stuck on looking for the ONE correct answer. Single examples are usually used by seniors to turn on the light bulb in juniors to show them...
you guessed it, CONCEPTS.
If you still don't get it, then answer the following question:
What is the exact target for a punch:asian:
newGuy12
Master of Arts
There is no exact target. There is no target defined.
Ed Parker said things like every block is a strike, every strike is a block. He would look at the video tapes of motions played backwards. What is the application now? This implies that there IS an application of that motion, though the motion (any motion, which ever you consider) is in reverse.
It is said that in American Kenpo, there are MANY, MANY different ways that the same technique is used. So many ways that it would take VOLUMES to categorize them all. It would be futile to try to enumerate all of the different ways that the motions can be understood.
They transcend this kind of thinking.
Ed Parker said things like every block is a strike, every strike is a block. He would look at the video tapes of motions played backwards. What is the application now? This implies that there IS an application of that motion, though the motion (any motion, which ever you consider) is in reverse.
It is said that in American Kenpo, there are MANY, MANY different ways that the same technique is used. So many ways that it would take VOLUMES to categorize them all. It would be futile to try to enumerate all of the different ways that the motions can be understood.
They transcend this kind of thinking.
Sure there is a target. Throwing a punch is kinda like knife fighting. The pointy part goes in to the bad guy.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
There is no such "knife fighting", but only assassination with the knife.Sure there is a target. Throwing a punch is kinda like knife fighting. The pointy part goes in to the bad guy.
There is no such "knife fighting", but only assassination with the knife.
Does that mean we do not play with knifes any less
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather from this that the OPer feels he has both the authority to 'set tests' for people who participate in MT threads, and the competence to make judgments about their mental capabilities
... on the basis of a single open-ended question about a kind of TKD hyung movement.My own feeling is that the temptation to do this sort of thing represents a test, all right... but not for the people who respond to the question...
Absolutely!
Because...instead of play...we train
You are so right
Look at it like this Exile every single day we get tested for something so why would this be any difference/ I know claim down breath and have another drink.
The question is, whether the question makes any sense as a test of 'mental' capacity and whether the person who presumes to be testing your 'mental' capacity is in any postion to set themselves up to make that claim. :lol:..
... as opposed, say, to a situation which really does test something, or a test administered by someone genuinely competent to administer such a test.
Upset? :lol:
The fact is, people sometimes abuse other people on MT by assuming authority and competence that they don't possess, and set themselves up to make judgments that they have no legitimate claims to. It happens from time to time, and it's unpleasant to watch. That's all. Pretty much what I actually said in my message... very simple. Maybe simple enough to consitute a 'mental test' for someone who didn't get it the first time, eh?
- Thread Starter
- #38
Upset? :lol:
The fact is, people sometimes abuse other people on MT by assuming authority and competence that they don't possess, and set themselves up to make judgments that they have no legitimate claims to. It happens from time to time, and it's unpleasant to watch. That's all...
If you feel abused then I am sorry.
I think everyone participates in the discourse to their own ability and free will!
I think nowadays it's mostly about aesthetics, but I've met "traditionalist" who were real sticklers when it came to hand position and movement while kicking in order to facilitate balance and power generation. Perhaps throwing a punch as you side kick enhances the technique. It could be that punching along your side kick can increase stability and add a bit more momentum behind the blow.
