Won-Hyo technical question

[thesensei]

My TKD instructor and I were working Won-Hyo last night, and I noticed a very odd thing in the pattern.

Moves 19-24:

19. S(90CCW) Left Walking Right Inner Forearm Circular Block
20. S Left Walking Front Snap Kick w. Right Foot
21. S Right Walking Left Rev. Middle Punch
22. S Right Walking Left Inner Forearm Circular Block
23. S Right Walking Front Snap Kick w. Left Foot
24. S Left Walking Right Rev. Middle Punch

After the front kick, you land forward and do a reverse punch with the opposite hand. Why would you use a reverse punch instead of a lunge punch? It seems like the range of a lunge punch (front hand) would be much more effective. Any ideas?

thanks,
jb

 

[Kong]

The first circular block could be used to control and throw aside a foot attack, after wich you follow up with the front kick and reverse punch,,,now, in this scenario you would end up pretty close to your opponent, and reverse punches generaly generate more power in close ranges since you throw it from further back, and it`s easier to get your hips into it.
Just a thought, this is a very common application scenario for that series of techniques.
Any one else got an idea?


:asian:

 

[arnisador]

We have an application similar to the one you mention in our Modern Arnis forms (derived from Shotokan). The "punch" might be reaching out to grab someone also. You might ask in the Karate forum as they have similar forms.

 

[TkdWarrior]

i think kong is rite... i m working on it... wat i think is when u kcik with ur rite foot the punch from rite hand will not generate much power(even if u r close to ur oppnt as kong suggested) even after kick u land in walking stance, may be that's also a bit odd...
dunno...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[thesensei]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

i think kong is rite... i m working on it... wat i think is when u kcik with ur rite foot the punch from rite hand will not generate much power(even if u r close to ur oppnt as kong suggested) even after kick u land in walking stance, may be that's also a bit odd...
dunno...
-TkdWarrior-

well if you use (to borrow from my kenpo experience) 'gravitational marriage,' striking as you land, you will generate much more power, along with less movement to get into that position. i suppose i understand what the form is trying to do, i guess i just wouldn't use it that way in a SD situation.

jb

 

[Bagatha]

Sometimes forms are just a sequence of movements put together to teach coordination of technique. Sometimes they do mean something greater whether in application or spiritually. In this case I really dont think it means anything. It could be a right punch, could be a left punch. But this way it sets it up so the 2nd cirrcular block is wasy to do, and looks nice. But just to argue about power.....how do you break boards? with a jab or with a cross?? It is more powerful in a reverse stance and doesnt take any longer to do at all. Although I highly doubt that was the motive.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Why punch from the back hand that is further away?

"reverse punches generaly generate more power"

These are also called crosses in boxing and they do tons more power than a lead hand jab. Yes they are further away than the jab.

"'gravitational marriage,' striking as you land, you will generate much more power"

This is also correct. After the front snap you do the cross (reverse punch) as you land which puts alot more power behind that punch.

"Sometimes forms are just a sequence of movements put together to teach coordination of technique"

This is also kind of true... I personally don't put too much thought or stress into what each movements application is in each pattern. There's so much else to focus on in TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[thesensei]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis



I personally don't put too much thought or stress into what each movements application is in each pattern. There's so much else to focus on in TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Gotcha...I guess i'm just used to the kenpo forms, where every movement generally has a specific purpose. It's just a difference I have to get used to.

BTW, what is honour TKD?

 

[Damian Mavis]

No no don't get me wrong, every move in our patterns is supposed to have a specific purpose. I just don't have the utmost faith in their usefulness. Alot of the patterns techniques are great, and alot would never be used by me in a fight. My point is.... I just don't worry about the patterns applicability in real life fighting too much so was suggesting the same to you. Most instructors won't talk to you like this but the focus of my school is street defence so if it's not extremely useful for street we don't focus on it as much as the next thing that is. But I think you really like patterns so don't mind my advice heh.

Honour TKD is the name of my school.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

No no don't get me wrong, every move in our patterns is supposed to have a specific purpose. I just don't have the utmost faith in their usefulness. Alot of the patterns techniques are great, and alot would never be used by me in a fight. My point is.... I just don't worry about the patterns applicability in real life fighting too much so was suggesting the same to you. Most instructors won't talk to you like this but the focus of my school is street defence so if it's not extremely useful for street we don't focus on it as much as the next thing that is. But I think you really like patterns so don't mind my advice heh.

Honour TKD is the name of my school.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I like the honesty about the patterns Damian, that's about how I feel about them. I like to do them for the workout and to work on basics but don't see any other use for them like the kenpo forms.

:asian:

 

[white belt]

Respectfully consider this concerning the punching with the rear hand in hyung. Pal Gae Sa Jang (form 4) has two such punches near and at the end of the form. At this point in development of the student, proper hip rotation for power is being trained. In Pal Gae E Jang (form 2) a front kick followed by a front hand punch is used throughout the form. This is teaching the basic shifting of forward momentum into a hand strike as the kick is being completed. At the higher level in forms practice the marriage of forward lunging and opposite hand / hip rotation are combined after proper time and practice are given to both seperately. I sense that this was intentionally done so that the aspiring student may have a better chance of capturing the body mechanics / physics essence. If I may suggest an experiment? In any of the forms you practice, look for a front kick followed by a same side punch (meaning right front snap kick followed by a right hand punch, etc.). Instead of keeping the spine straight and rigid during the kick, push the hips strongly forward and imagine the spine bending back like a flexible piece of bamboo. When your kicks zenith is reached, and your upper body is pulled forward by the hips projection, release that punch. When done correctly the catapulting of the spine, with a proper hand chamber at the hip, will accelerate your punch in an almost amazing way. The time lag between the kick and punch will also be virtually nonexistant as compared to before. Now after that is digested by your nervous system, try the front kick REAR hand punch and use the spine whip WITH the hip rotation. If executed right your arm may be in danger of flying out of the socket from the velocity. BE CAREFUL is all I can say to anyone trying this. If you practice your forms in a half assed non-serious way, YOUR SPINE AND SHOULDER MAY NOT BE READY FOR THE SHOCK.

On the yoga side of the coin, by keeping the torso upright and turning the hip into the punch, you are lengthening your hip flexors and developing your range of motion for proper lumbar health. If you hold the stance deeply and as correct as possible, breath deep into the abdomen with muscles relaxed and you will feel a pleasant opening of the much used front of the pelvis. If this is old news, I apologize in advance for my verbosity.

Respectfully,
white belt

 

[white belt]

An additional note. That block before the kick punch combo may be something other than it seems. Humor me and look at the block as a possible trapping / submisson hold. The punch and kick can then be delivered to very specific targets if the culprit can't free himself. It's a shame there are not more people like you and your instructor who see that there is something more to the forms than many of the jaded newcomers. Our art would then be seen in it's proper light.

Respectfully,
white belt

 

[arnisador]

It goes to show ho wimportant it is to interpret the forms!

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt

An additional note. That block before the kick punch combo may be something other than it seems. Humor me and look at the block as a possible trapping / submisson hold. The punch and kick can then be delivered to very specific targets if the culprit can't free himself. It's a shame there are not more people like you and your instructor who see that there is something more to the forms than many of the jaded newcomers. Our art would then be seen in it's proper light.

Respectfully,
white belt

Its not a sumbission hold. It's a "catch and release". All one needs to do is put a person in front of them when they perform the patterns to see that some movements just arent realistic. Some may be, but some arent.

 

[Damian Mavis]

No kidding bagatha.

"It's a shame there are not more people like you and your instructor who see that there is something more to the forms than many of the jaded newcomers."

Mr. White belt, I'm assuming your much older than I am and probably a Master in ITF TKD to talk this way so I will give you the respect I would afford any such person and just say that I firmly don't have faith in the forms. My colleagues swear by them and we often debate how and why they are useless to me for street applications while they argue up and down how important and realistic they are. Just differences of opinion and something I doubt we will ever agree on.

It's just the way I feel about patterns sir.

Damian Mavis

 

[white belt]

That "much older" comment reminds me of the three categories of our great western societies.

1) The hip people.
2) The not so hip people.
3) And the broken hip people.

I will admit to being a member of group 2.

Referencing the subject of rank. Apparently I am VERY rank at communicating, in type, three dimensional thoughts to others. My apologies. Understanding technique and application are not necessarily an indication of rank. Rank is not necessarily an indication of understanding technique and application. I sense much frustration in the tone of the replies given me. I don't wish to incite further frustration. I interact only to serve goodhearted people and their sincere interest in proven experiences shared with and by me. Again my humble apologies. I also extend these thoughts to the young lady in category 1 and hope she does well at her tournament endeavor. I will read instead of type for awhile that I may learn.

white belt

 

[Damian Mavis]

I hope I didn't sound frustrated, I have the pattern debate with other instructors all the time and it's always lighthearted. I was agreeing with Bagatha that some of the movements in our patterns just seem rather useless for a full contact, full speed street type encounter. The only thing I wasn't too fond of was thinking you were refering to me as a jaded newcomer. I've only been training for 13 years in TKD and to some that might seem like a newcomer. I wasn't being sarcastic, was really just trying to cover my butt in case I was about to debate with a Master in ITF TKD.

"Understanding technique and application are not necessarily an indication of rank."

It should be, but you are right... it isn't.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Bagatha]

*Ahem* call me "newbie".... just a baby of arts around here...

Myself, patterns are my "forte" (sp?) I simply dont have the desire or natural ability in sparring that my patterns have. One particular ITF Master once told me "if you have good patterns, that means you can spar good". Well....not so far, I have my moments but it is inconsistent. They say that it is all about technique, understanding body mechanics. If you can do it in the patterns, then you can apply it elsewhere. I suppose.....but the instict is not there, the interaction, the timing. Patterns cannot replace sparring, and sparring cannot replace patterns. They are both usefull....but I still dont think patterns are "realistic".

 

[white belt]

Bagatha,

Share with me your description of how a basic low block works. I am serious. I might be in a position to share something possibly not considered. Explain the manipulation of the kicking leg by your block. If you are reluctant, I understand. A newcomer to me can be someone who bought what they were taught for many years and they still haven't cracked the physiology code of the movements. It is something that I thought was nonexistant and then something happened. I was a streetfighter when I started M.A.s and I thought forms were for nerds. I did forms using the intent of what I was told the basic moves are doing. How we are first taught is not very useful, but, how we are first taught is not the truth. I like TKD people and want them to feel better about their time invested without causing further pain. I liken the TKD discussions I see to the A.A. meetings format. Something like "Hello, I am so and so....and I practice useless martial art!!!". It's not necessary to have this mindset. Apparently, this is not an easy quest. Share your lowblock, please. I will then explain the truth if needed.

Respectfully,
white belt

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by white belt

...'... Explain the manipulation of the kicking leg by your block. If you are reluctant, I understand. A newcomer to me can be someone who bought what they were taught for many years and they still haven't cracked the physiology code of the movements....... I like TKD people and want them to feel better about their time invested without causing further pain. I liken the TKD discussions I see to the A.A. meetings format. Something like "Hello, I am so and so....and I practice useless martial art!!!". It's not necessary to have this mindset. Apparently, this is not an easy quest. Share your lowblock, please. I will then explain the truth if needed.......

Sorry. But this sounds like what? God's gift to TKD? Savior of TKD practitioners? And your credential? A former streetfighter. I see. So was I and a bizillion other JoeBlows from the street!! To use streetfighting credential is like the aging Voodoo witch doctor "enlightening" heart surgeons on "real life" medicine. There is NOTHING mystical about street fighting. I would probably (stated in humility) prevail at a street encounter BUT get squarely KO in most sparring comp. (OK. Bad example. May be I just simply suck then. ) The fact is there is nothing magical about streetfighting.

When I read your post above this one, Sir, you came across rather respectable. This post however, is a disappointment.


P.S. Unlike Ms Bagatha and Mr Mavis, I am nobody in TKD and just simply calling it as I see it. JMHO, as they say.