Won-Hyo technical question

[white belt]

Thank you for your response. Your statement of there "being nothing mystical about streetfighting" is precisely my point in the last post. Thank you for being more succint than I. I expressed my experience of weak diplomacy (streetfighting) only to make the point that there is a closer link between forms / basics and real self defense than most TKD people and others may think. I am not a macho kind of person, but, I unfortunately crossed paths with a few toughs that I could not escape. Now if I had not been in any real altercations, the ability to appreciate what is in the forms and it's usefulness would have been more obscured.

In reference to Bagatha, she seems like a strong person and I admire her for her spirit. I will question the more curious views / statements of intelligent people first, for they are the ones who most like to acquire more knowledge and they in turn have much knowledge to share. I am a student of all and a follower of none. I am no more a "gift" than you, but, we are all "gifts" to each other.

Unfortunately the gift of our patterns (TKD or other arts) sometimes gets lost in the packing material and one then thinks it is an empty box. We TKD people all need to sometimes go back and reexamine the discarded material before too many more generations are taught the box is empty. I really enjoy sparring Olympic style and otherwise, but, the trends of focusing on only sport competition threatens the long term existance of true growth oriented martial art. Judo is a good example of what can happen. The Judo of 50 years ago is not the Judo of today. There were more street useable techniques then. A lot of younger Judo people are surprised to find out there are Judo kata! Something is wrong there. That is where the majority of the self defense is stored. And yes, it is useable. For lack of a better example reference the triangle chokes, arm bars and leg sweeps from tie up position in MMA. How many Judo Dojo's are around now as compared to only 30 years ago? With the population increasing one would suspect an increase in growth, not a decrease.

Back to my original question. How do the mechanics of the basic low / down block work for self defense? A clue, it can be used as a destruction or submission without changing the attributes. I understand the subject is touchy with some and no I don't think I know all and see all. I will put my groin cup on before I look at any more responses. Maybe I should get some ice too.


Good surfing,
white belt

P.S.
Surgical science is studying a powder used by Voodoo priests to put people in suspended animation resembling death. It is thought to be a possible aid in controling respiration during delicate procedures. Cup on.

 

[KennethKu]

First of all, Ms Bagatha does not need me nor any one else to defend her.

Secondly, it is not necessary to assume that people would automatically get defensive or irritable or upset over your views that may or may not counter to theirs. They are professionals, and although while ego is everywhere in MA, they are the exceptional ones. It sure wouldn't be the first time they have heard different views and opinions.

I will now shut up and get off my soap box. :asian:

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt

Bagatha,

Share with me your description of how a basic low block works. I am serious. I might be in a position to share something possibly not considered. Explain the manipulation of the kicking leg by your block. If you are reluctant, I understand. A newcomer to me can be someone who bought what they were taught for many years and they still haven't cracked the physiology code of the movements. It is something that I thought was nonexistant and then something happened. I was a streetfighter when I started M.A.s and I thought forms were for nerds. I did forms using the intent of what I was told the basic moves are doing. How we are first taught is not very useful, but, how we are first taught is not the truth. I like TKD people and want them to feel better about their time invested without causing further pain. I liken the TKD discussions I see to the A.A. meetings format. Something like "Hello, I am so and so....and I practice useless martial art!!!". It's not necessary to have this mindset. Apparently, this is not an easy quest. Share your lowblock, please. I will then explain the truth if needed.

Respectfully,
white belt

There is nothing basic about a low block. I could really type for hours on mechanics and application, but if your more interested in the result, a kick specifically, a properly executed low block should disable the opponents attacking weapon. Which I beleive would....if everyone fought in stances and follwed rules.

On a side note....I was all for it until you went into the "reluctant" speech, it made me a little defensive and sounded very arrogant. One thing that is overwhelming the martial arts is arrogance, and is one of the things I find absolutley disgusting. Im not accusing you because having read it a few times I know where your heart is, and if you have ideas to contribute I would love to hear them, but I thought its important that you understand where Im coming from before we proceed.

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by KennethKu

First of all, Ms Bagatha does not need me nor any one else to defend her.

Then ....

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Then ....

Would you hold on a second there? Sheeze!
It was a general rebuttal. In light of the TKD spirit of humility, I was takan aback by the tune of the post.

 

[white belt]

Bagatha,

The "reluctant" statement is in reference to how some serious practicioners look at sharing hard earned and potentially dangerous knowledge. It was actually a compliment of sorts.

Next question, which side of the forearm, in your application, is used to make initial contact with the kicking leg?

white belt

 

[Bagatha]

Funny....it almost sounded like you were starting another fight...

(@ Ken)

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Funny....it almost sounded like you were starting another fight...

(@ Ken)

Oh noooo. Not at all. Bagatha, I keep my words.

LOL, this sounded like one of Bruce Lee's movies.

No, what I mean was, my lack of diplomatic skill notwithstanding, there isn't any need to pick fight.

 

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt

Bagatha,

The "reluctant" statement is in reference to how some serious practicioners look at sharing hard earned and potentially dangerous knowledge. It was actually a compliment of sorts.

Next question, which side of the forearm, in your application, is used to make initial contact with the kicking leg?

white belt

outer..

 

[white belt]

Can you describe your chambering of the arm in question? Where does it start, where does it stop? Does it go up toward the opposite shoulder and then sweep down to make contact? Also, where is the opposite arm and hand in all this? I have something really cool to share once I see where your points of reference are. Sacrifice a few minutes. It may at first look silly these questions I ask, but, I may have a nice surprise for you. This is leading to something I found and verified with an ex-miitary Korean G.M. This led me to other things hidden in plain view also.

Respectfully,
white belt

 

[Bagatha]

I am assuming at this point you are asking me these questions because you are unfamiliar with this block in particular, or want to make sure we do the same block. oookaaaay... lol... here we go.. -Low outer forearm block-

HAND PORTION ONLY..

both hands come up shoulder height, almost fully extended, On the opposite chest line to the blocking direction. Hands cross (overlap) breifly as they both remain in motion, palms facing the opposite direction to the finished position to alow for torque. Blocking hand crosses on top, the 2 backs of the hands facing each other as they cross(although never touch). The breif backward motion is then followed by the 2nd portion of the movement, where the blocking arm is on a 45 degree tragectory toward the target and the reaction hand goes to whatever its destination would be with equal force. The final few inches of the block, both hands torque. The final resting position is with the arm parallel with the thigh, at a distance of about 20 cm. The elbow is bent outward 25 degrees, and the forearm itself is still rotated (pointed) on the 45 degree mark.

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt

An additional note. That block before the kick punch combo may be something other than it seems. Humor me and look at the block as a possible trapping / submisson hold. The punch and kick can then be delivered to very specific targets if the culprit can't free himself.

I'm having trouble visiualizing that. Am I correct in assuming that for a submission you have the leg gripped with two hands? (Ending posistion would be too unstable for a reliable sub otherwise.) Seems like that's not a great base for delivering kicks or punches from, especially if you're still holding the opponent after they fail to free themselves. What happens to make it into a good punching/kicking platform? I can understand the trapping application since that's pretty much the general purpose of the block as I understand it, but I'd appreciate more detail.

For that matter, the pattern as described says to deliver a low front kick and a middle reverse punch afterwards. With the opponent's kicking leg trapped, most obvious application would be a kick to the knee (potential hyperextension) followed by a punch to the solar plexus or the xyphloid process, but neither target's so secret or potentially deadly that you'd have to actively suppress mentioning them explicitly. Are there other, better targets within the ranges described by the pattern? I'd be interested in hearing some clarification on that as well.

 

[white belt]

Bagatha,

You obviously do better than I when getting to the point. I will try my best to explain this all clearly.

When the blocking hand comes up. This is the first key. Before that hand starts moving upward, it is down in front of the groin area. The "nonblocking hand", let's say right hand for example, comes up to the right shoulder at the neck and jaw line. Both elbows are drawn together for coverage. At this point one fist is up (r) and one down (l). Freezing this picture here, the groin solar plexus and jaw area are covered against impact and the body is slightly turned away from the kick letting the force be slightly deflected or absorbed. Now as you pointed out, the left hand is drawn up and crosses at the wrist in FRONT of the right one at the right shoulder. This is done AFTER the kick has struck either the upper OR lower arm. The INSIDE of the left arm, at the thicker Radius, or Radius of the right arm were in position to take impact. Your UPSWING with the left is now CATCHING the leg as your attacker tries to lower it. It becomes shelved on the forearm and it becomes trapped BETWEEN your forearms / wrists as the upswing completes. The kicker then is on one leg and trying to get free or not fall down as you have the chamber in front of your right shoulder. It's a trap. The actual block takes place BEFORE the downstroke of the left arm. Now this is where it gets REALLY violent. For reasons of safety have someone, who doesn't mind, sit in a chair. Have them extend their leg while you mimic the two hands chambered at your right shoulder with their ankle in the valley of your wrist junction. Now with left hand / wrist on top, open your left hand and extend the fingers, reaching over their instep, and hook them around the edge of their foot. NOW the downstroke is applied and the leg is broken at the knee and / or ankle with a simple twisting motion. The hips are the force / torque generator. If the user would like, there is a nicer way. This one is good if only one attacker. They can simply kneel while in front stance, and apply pressure for a submission / takedown. The quarry is held in place now by pulling the RIGHT hand back toward the hip, holding the back of their calf muscle, with fingers DUG into the muscle belly. This is where the right hand, which gets chambered at the hip, sees it's function. Stick your thumb into the inward side of your calf muscle, at the belly between your legs, to catch my drift. This is why some of the older styles had kneeling versions of some blocks. They were used as restraining holds until the adversary was under control. This same toe hold can be set up from a single leg takedown for the groundfighters out there.

The basic movements and forms have survived centuries for more than excercise and the banging of arms and legs. But, I am just one man it appears. I hope forms become a little more interesting for some who didn't see this on their own yet. I would appreciate any discoveries from fellow likeminded forms practitioners. I will never find as much without other's input. If I seem verbose, I apologize. I am in awe about how much is out there to learn. I like to learn and be critiqued at the same time.

Well, who did I pee off this time?

Cup on,
white belt

 

[white belt]

Marginal,

This is Sub-Marginal aka white belt. The explanation you are looking for will require some further input about the form in question. It is not a pattern I have, but, I have many others that may help us with clues. Do you practice this pattern? If so, please detail the sensai's description of move 19 hands, feet, trajectories, etc. I want to make sure I don't waste your time and effort with one fatal oversight. Also, will your teacher be able to help? Does he or would he mind me sharing? I must respect the circumstances here. Check out the latest post by me concerning the low block and you will see why I won't be tossing around info. much more. It would be irresponsible on my part. I don't want a meany hurting someone because of me. My main reason for hopping on board with this forum, is to generate some fresh interest in forms and basics. I love martial arts and all, but, TKD is suffering from the bashing by the MMA surge. MMA is great, but, a lot of the submissions are in the TKD, Karate and old Ju Jitsu forms. Our forms / basics are so watered down now, that this is near impossible to see. I again refer you to my last post. You will understand. Things have sort of come full circle. All arts are good, but, some are being more diluted for various reasons. I want the forms practicioners to find the truth in the forms themselves, get as much verification as possible, and then teach the next generation correctly. That is our real future. Sparring is great, but, forms techniques are more versatile for self defense. Thank you for replying. Maybe I can help, with your input, on Won-Hyo.

white belt

P.S.
I may be a little delayed responding due to the workload I have during the week. I will do my best and I mean no disrespect.

 

[Bagatha]

:shrug: Im not buying it. There is are specific trapping movements which are different than what the low block is, like the one in won hyo, a cirrcular block. It is very specific. Each move is clearly defined and layed out in the encyclopedia, blocks are to be used as strikes, or deflections, submissions are a different catagory. Low blocks dont start at the groin and go back up, both hands move together at all times etc. I suppose if there was no encyclopedia then there would be alot of guess work but since it expains pretty much everything what you describe just doesnt sit. If your talking about whatever the original movement was that began hundreds of years ago (if not more) before it was "modified" over and over, I really dunno, it would be interesting to see something written on that. But again the movements have been altered in the creation of TKD to formulate a strike with the forearm or knifehand low block, with the intention of breaking the tibia, or at the very least making it painful enough that the attacker wont use it again. Also, from what limited experiece I have in submission fighting, the most basic universal concept (at my level ) is that to have effective control over your partner you must keep the limb your working on close to your body, the low block doesnt do this either. Arms are almost fully extended at shoulder height, which would be a really awkward position. But all this is interesting to think about.

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt

The explanation you are looking for will require some further input about the form in question. It is not a pattern I have, but, I have many others that may help us with clues. Do you practice this pattern?

I feel like I just emailed a tech support department...

The pattern is listed here

My questions were very specific, in the context of the thread, and could be answered with minimal effort on your part. Furthermore, I see no reason why I need to waste my time describing the moves you've been discussing for several posts already. So really, you are wasting my time already.

Also, will your teacher be able to help? Does he or would he mind me sharing? I must respect the circumstances here.[/b]

No conflicts there.

Check out the latest post by me concerning the low block and you will see why I won't be tossing around info.

I read that. (I don't buy it however.)

It would be irresponsible on my part. I don't want a meany hurting someone because of me.

There's no danger of that.

My main reason for hopping on board with this forum, is to generate some fresh interest in forms and basics.

Great. Answering simple questions may be a good method of doing so.

I love martial arts and all, but, TKD is suffering from the bashing by the MMA surge.

There are other factors at work here. However, stopgap grappling reinterpretations of basic movements in forms probably won't do much to shut up MMA types.

Our forms / basics are so watered down now, that this is near impossible to see.

Kinda like constellations.

I again refer you to my last post. You will understand.

All too clearly. You have nothing substantive to say. You're merely content to hide behine the "secret/deadly technique" veil at the expense of such a discussion. Given that I've seen 3-6th dans freely discussing this stuff online with no fears of countless deaths being the result, I have to wonder.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Yikes, hmmm, uhm.... gee I really don't know what to say.....

White belt, what are your sources for such an interesting interpretation of those movements. Or is that a personal interpretation on your part?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

P.S. was that a joke about people reading your pattern theory and using it to hurt people? That seemed....odd.

 

[Marginal]

A middle guarding block is potentially deadly as a technique because you can catch a kick in the "v" created with your lead arm. (I've caught a few kicks with it accidently at least, so the example works about as well as the downblock one) Once they're trapped, you can lever them off so they fall down, sweep them, apply a joint attack to the trapped leg, the supporting leg, or even strike key points on the chest and head since you still have one arm free in perfect reverse punch position. (TKD's suddenly way more dangerous than it was before you read this post. If you kill anyone with this, do not sue me.)

 

[Damian Mavis]

Just to avoid any confusion, the whole of my last post was directed at Whitebelt.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Marginal]

Just to avoid any confusion, the whole of my last post was directed at Whitebelt.

No confusion here.

Just had a stroke of inspiration along the line of thinking that created the interpretation of the down block as an offensive tool. (I don't really think that a middle guarding block is an effective grappling tool, but the logic fits about as well.)