Kicking with a punch
- Thread starter DArnold
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I've wondered about this point for a long time.
In Palgwe Oh Jang there are two kicks of this type, and I've never been able to understand the move in combat terms. I've wondered for a long time if the combined kick/punch was a conflation of two moves which originally were intended to be carried out as a sequence of two distinct moves.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Here's an idea:
I don't know about doing a side kick with a punch, personally I find it awkward and unlikely.
However, doing a low front kick with a punch to the face works well and has some interesting things going on. Especially if you use opposite hand to foot; kick with the left, punch with the right, for better power and balance than if you try to kick and punch both with the right.
What happens is that when you attack the face, namely around the nose and eyes, you create an automatic response in the enemy to flinch away from the punch. He wants to sort of pull backwards and turn away to get that damned fist out of his face.
Likewise, when you kick low to the groin, you cause an automatic response to flinch away, i.e. bend over and pull the hips away from the incoming kick.
When you do both of these things at the same time, you create a conflicting automatice flinch response, that can sort of overload the body's automatic response desires. One cannot pull back and away at the head level, and bend forward to retract the hips at the same time. It's just physically not possible. What can happen is that the bad guy freezes, and you hit him with both shots.
I don't know about doing a side kick with a punch, personally I find it awkward and unlikely.
However, doing a low front kick with a punch to the face works well and has some interesting things going on. Especially if you use opposite hand to foot; kick with the left, punch with the right, for better power and balance than if you try to kick and punch both with the right.
What happens is that when you attack the face, namely around the nose and eyes, you create an automatic response in the enemy to flinch away from the punch. He wants to sort of pull backwards and turn away to get that damned fist out of his face.
Likewise, when you kick low to the groin, you cause an automatic response to flinch away, i.e. bend over and pull the hips away from the incoming kick.
When you do both of these things at the same time, you create a conflicting automatice flinch response, that can sort of overload the body's automatic response desires. One cannot pull back and away at the head level, and bend forward to retract the hips at the same time. It's just physically not possible. What can happen is that the bad guy freezes, and you hit him with both shots.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
In many TaeKwon-Do patterns you punch with a side kick.
Actually, our instructor has made some slight mods to how we do Taeguek forms and one of them is for Oh-Jang not to use "sidekick-punch" instead the hand motion is a grab to hold the opponent while you punch.
But then he stresses one point "Always know what you are doing...and why.. what's the target? what's the body mechanic? what are you really doing in that move? If you don't know... find out!" So for several motions in the Taeguek forms, we do something slightly different from the 'book' version simply because of body mechanics and motion.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
As Flying Crane undoubted knows, this is a common move in various Shaolin styles.
I agree the sidekick and punch combination doesn't really make sense as a simultaneous attack. I'd prefer an interpretation of the lead hand movement as being an on guard position instead as the kicking attack is made. Of course, I practice the Okinawan versions of the Pinan kata where the sidekicks are front kicks, so what do I know?
cdunn
2nd Black Belt
There is, in the Pyung Ahn forms, a parallel motion, especially in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan. In these forms, the side-kick-and-closed-hand-strike is followed up by an elbow strike to the now open striking hand, as if one had taken hold of the head during the double over / flinch from the side kick landing properly. Timing and range are everything.
cflick
Yellow Belt
This could fall under the each mover has several purposes.
It's been said around these boards that there is deeper meaning to blocks, that they can also be offensive strikes, grabs, or throws.
The punch in turn could open up to a grab.
Lets say you grab the opponents arm and pull him in as you execute the kick simultaneously. This could be very effective!
It's been said around these boards that there is deeper meaning to blocks, that they can also be offensive strikes, grabs, or throws.
The punch in turn could open up to a grab.
Lets say you grab the opponents arm and pull him in as you execute the kick simultaneously. This could be very effective!
Even though the hyung has us execute them simultaneously, I think of the punch as actually grabbing the arm of the oppent exposing the rib or under arm area (ouch!). I suppose it could also be a distraction. The opponent sees a punch coming towards the head, moves the guard up some only to be kicked in the abdomen.
punisher73
Senior Master
I must be built funny, because my leg is a lot longer than my arm. So I don't see how a sidekick/punch is BOTH going to hit AT THE SAME TIME.
I agree with the comments that they are staggered and would work. OR that the punch is actually a grab to the opponenent to set up the kick.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Keep in mind that, at least in in Oh-Jang, the prior move is a high block.
Now think of the distance(s) involved for that to flow together as one set.
Now think of the distance(s) involved for that to flow together as one set.
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
Punching as you kick doesn't make much sense, as the punch won't have any power and you are leaving your head open for counterattack.
Just my advice..
A high block? The way I learned it, there is a 270º turn lead by a left fist-outward middle block, followed by a reverse punch and a lunge punch, which are the lead-up moves. Both fists are brought to the right hip, along with the indicated pivot on the right foot, and the left leg kick and the left fist side punch are executed simultaneously. After the elbow strike and the double knifehand, a 180º turn led by a right fist outward middle block leads to the same kick/side-punch combination in the opposite direction to the first. Do you do a high block in this Palgwe?
Yeah, that's the thing that's been bothering me ever since I learned the form. Especially bearing in mind that for a middle height side kick (which is how we were taught it), your upper body is going to be tipped back a bit off the vertical for balance, so a punch going away from the direction your weight is committed to is not only going to lack reach, but force as well. It's never really added up, for me...
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Do you do a high block in this Palgwe?
In Taeguek Oh-Jang? You lost me....
I think the punch tends to be there mainly to keep people from going too off form while kicking.
This follows from my general feeling of forms (at least Taeguek). I tend to view them more as a catalog of abstractions of techniques. Like musical scales and exercises, the embody ideals of music for technical practice and communication, but they are not themselves music. So when I look at "do this and then do this" and the spacings, distance and targets make no sense", I tend to either look to see if the motions and movements suggest a *different* technique that makes more sense.. or I just break it into two separate techniques and practice them for their own sake.
But I'll say again what I've said before...you gotta take it out of the form and practice the real technique in a realistic scenario. Taeguek Chil Jang will tell you that Taekwondo has knees...but doing Chil Jang over and over will not teach you how to use knees effectively. Grab a partner with a shield and grab his head and slam your knee into him for some drilling and notice the difference between the technical abstraction and the applied reality.
In Taeguek Oh-Jang? You lost me....
I think the punch tends to be there mainly to keep people from going too off form while kicking.
This follows from my general feeling of forms (at least Taeguek). I tend to view them more as a catalog of abstractions of techniques. Like musical scales and exercises, the embody ideals of music for technical practice and communication, but they are not themselves music. So when I look at "do this and then do this" and the spacings, distance and targets make no sense", I tend to either look to see if the motions and movements suggest a *different* technique that makes more sense.. or I just break it into two separate techniques and practice them for their own sake.
But I'll say again what I've said before...you gotta take it out of the form and practice the real technique in a realistic scenario. Taeguek Chil Jang will tell you that Taekwondo has knees...but doing Chil Jang over and over will not teach you how to use knees effectively. Grab a partner with a shield and grab his head and slam your knee into him for some drilling and notice the difference between the technical abstraction and the applied reality.
Hmmm, that seems to be the problem.... The Palgwes are a very, very different form set from the Taegeuks; they're based on the Pinan katas to a large extent, and were the replacements for the Pinans when the latter were dropped from the official KKW syllabus. The Palgwes in turn were sidelined for reasons that were not very nice, but they weren't ruled out absolutely. In my dojang we don't do the Taegeuks at all, just the Palgwes and several Koreanized katas as colored belt ranking forms. Palgwe Oh-Jang has the sequence I described in my post...
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Yeah, I figured it was something like that : ) My bad for not spelling out *which* Oh-Jang I meant, Taeguek Oh-Jang has a "turn,high-block,sidekick-punch, elbow" sequence and that's what I was thinking of. Mostly in terms that anything close enough to be highblocked means that your sidekick is going to be in very tight... meaning think of what your targets and body mechanics are.
As it was explained to me, the Taegueks were really designed as children's forms. It was when everything went down with the split off that for political reasons that the KKW dropped the Palgwes (because they had been designed by Choi?) and as a replacement they just brought the Taegueks up for all ages Which is why my Sabunim says they are "technical but not practical", even though he works to make them at least realistic, but he also emphasize to us that we need to know what we are doing (what's the target...what are you striking/blocking...where does the body move when you strike it and how does that flow into the next technique). Body movement and distance becomes a big part of that.
What we do for "Practical" is "Yun Forms", which are assembled from one-step sparring and hoshinsul techniques by my instructor's instructor (GM Yun...hence the name : ) and the mechanics and techniques are far different than the Taegueks
For the record, the Palgwes were not designed by Choi. He was well into using and promoting his own Chang Hon forms by this point, and in any case was on the outs in South Korea. The Palgwes were designed by several Tae Kwon Do Instructors, primarily Chung Do Kwan.
But I digress...
The punching with the side kick is not executed as a regular punch per se. As it was explained to me, it is done for two reasons.
First, to provide sort of a "rifle sight" so that the target of the kick is aligned with the leg and side of the body.
Second, it is used to force the body and its momentum forward to produce a longer technique. If you notice, the Taekwondo sidekick with the punch and forward momentum is rather unique to Korea, in the sense that it is a marked departure from the Japanese way of doing this kick. It is designed to create a longer technique and direct greater kinetic energy toward the target. One of the reasons why Chung Do Kwan became known for its sidekick.
But I digress...
The punching with the side kick is not executed as a regular punch per se. As it was explained to me, it is done for two reasons.
First, to provide sort of a "rifle sight" so that the target of the kick is aligned with the leg and side of the body.
Second, it is used to force the body and its momentum forward to produce a longer technique. If you notice, the Taekwondo sidekick with the punch and forward momentum is rather unique to Korea, in the sense that it is a marked departure from the Japanese way of doing this kick. It is designed to create a longer technique and direct greater kinetic energy toward the target. One of the reasons why Chung Do Kwan became known for its sidekick.
e ship yuk
Yellow Belt
I'm unsure what you mean here. Shotokan extends the arm on the sidekick in Heian nidan, and the sidekicks in Heian yondan.
There is no "true" with. One should always follow the other as a flow.
Sean
