Kenpo salutation question

[Doc]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Dear Doc,
Unfortunately, you are not specific on who's opinion is wrong in this matter. However, for the sake of arguement, I'll presume you are addressing me and my statements.
I'm glad you are able to add your personal insights into this matter and your discussions with Mr. Parker as well as seeing Mitose demonstrate. Would you please elaborate on the times that you did see Mitose perform? I know that there were several times that Mitose did visit one of Mr. parker's studios on several occasions and according to Mr. Parker, tried to get him to "donate" to a "Kenpo Temple". I have spoken to Richard "Huk" Planas, who stated that "He wasn't impressed" and Steve Hearring, who stated that Mitose struck him with a "Nerve Strike" that Steve remembers to this day! This was from personal conversations with both men at different times.

I am well aware of Mr. Parker's opinion of Mitose and how He [mitose] tried to con him out of money. Mr. Parker also never trained with Mitose in Hawaii at any time in his trainiong. He trained with Prof. Chow and individuals like Adriano Emperado, who was his "senior" in Chow's Class at that time. However, Chow had indeed learned from Mitose and was awarded his Black Belt from Thomas Young and Mitose. Please remember Doc, the time frame and the limited ammount of Martial Arts that were available at that time. I'm reminded of the old adage "In the land of dwarfs, the midget is king!". If you are teaching people with no prior martial arts experience, and you have some [although perhaps limited] then you are top man on the totem pole. the form he taught was "naihanchin" and most of his book was a plagarized attempt from a karate text from a man named mutsu, including the photos of Mutsu breaking tiles and Motobu's pic.

Mitose covered his numerous "religious" guises by stating the phrase "when i'm among christians, i'm a christian, when i'm among buddhists, i'm a buddhist." allegedly, he was a buddhist originally and later became a protestant [sp] minister.

I have seen the details of the court transcript and other past charge/rap sheets on Mitose so I can vouch for his "dubious" past.

If I am wrong regarding you addressing me regarding this you have my apologies but I am stating facts as I know them regarding the lineage of the kenpo systems/styles.

I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

Joe you make some good points as do I, but this is always going to be bone of contention for some. All I can say for sure is Parker always stated he wasn't in his lineage and I know for a certainty he wasn't in mine, soooooooo can I get a Pepsi?:asian:

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Doc
Hell are you kidding? My place. And bring a couple of Pepsi's.

Pepsi! none of that, only seven-up. I can deal with the sugar but not the caffein and the coloring.
Hey, It is great to have respects for one another even though we do not agree on small details. I wish the youngters could learn from this.

respectfully,

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Pepsi! none of that, only seven-up. I can deal with the sugar but not the caffein and the coloring.
Hey, It is great to have respects for one another even though we do not agree on small details. I wish the youngters could learn from this.

respectfully,

Are you kidding? You are an optimist aren't you?

Hell, I agree with you more than I did my Mom & Dad. Can't sweat the small stuff. Too much really serious stuff to deal with.:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Doc
Joe you make some good points as do I, but this is always going to be bone of contention for some. All I can say for sure is Parker always stated he wasn't in his lineage and I know for a certainty he wasn't in mine, soooooooo can I get a Pepsi?:asian:

I'm into diet coke, so if not that, how about 2 tickets to the super bowl, i know you got connections with Al Davis!

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
I'm into diet coke,

Code red mountain dew for me.

 

[Sigung86]

My hat is off to all who kept this conversation civil. Been really interesting reading.

Thanks to all...

Dan

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sigung86
My hat is off to all who kept this conversation civil. Been really interesting reading. Thanks to all...Dan

Of Course!!!!!! What'd ya think............... you were on the OTHER FORUM!!!!!!!:rofl:

Besides...... everyone here has lost thier marbles.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Sigung86
My hat is off to all who kept this conversation civil. Been really interesting reading.

Thanks to all...

Dan

AWWWW SHADUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPP!!!!!!!!!

WAIT! I apologize. I was having a kenponet flashback.

 

[D.Cobb]

Sorry to take us away from creed and lineage discussions, but I have a question that I'm hoping one of you guys can answer.

Actually, it's more than 1.

At the end of the full salutation, when you complete the "pray for forgiveness" part, and your hands then go up and out to your sides to slap your hips, I was taught this as being the heart part of the universal symbol, and symbolising 'brotherly love for our fellow man' and that the hands were in 'tigerclaws slashing' to show that the love wasn't given easy.
The question is have any of you heard or even seen this in print?

My second question would be, why did Mr. Tatum change the salute at the end and put in what I think he calls 'kissing circles'? I could be wrong about the terminology from Mr. Tatum..




--Dave

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Sorry to take us away from creed and lineage discussions, but I have a question that I'm hoping one of you guys can answer.

Actually, it's more than 1.

At the end of the full salutation, when you complete the "pray for forgiveness" part, and your hands then go up and out to your sides to slap your hips, I was taught this as being the heart part of the universal symbol, and symbolising 'brotherly love for our fellow man' and that the hands were in 'tigerclaws slashing' to show that the love wasn't given easy.
The question is have any of you heard or even seen this in print?

I have heard that interpretation as well as many others, but none of them were written down to my knowledge by Mr. Parker.

My second question would be, why did Mr. Tatum change the salute at the end and put in what I think he calls 'kissing circles'? I could be wrong about the terminology from Mr. Tatum..

For that you would have to ask Larry, as it would only be appropriate to ask him his reasons for what he has done.

The American Kenpo Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new.” The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. (2) Respect to those who would observe the movements. (3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science.

During the period of the Shao-lin in the Ch'ing Dynasty, the meaning of the gesture changed when two additional movements were added. The change was that the left hand represented the sun, the right hand the moon. With this change, the combination of sun and moon represented the Chinese character Ming, thus meaning "revolutionary defenders for the cause of the Ming restoration." The two additional movements that were added to the sun and the moon were formed by placing the back of the hands together with both palms out. The fingers at this point were in a claw-like-fashion and raised to the chest and heart. This gesture meant,

"We are against foreign invasion and our hearts are for China." The last movement was to clench both hands and draw them to the sides of the waist. This pulling gesture meant, "By pulling and working together we can take our country back." The Hungs, who were secret triad societies in China, perpetuated these movements. In short, "Scholar and warrior, united together, back to back, pulling together, to defend against the foreign intruders.”

The execution of this can be seen in and is explained in the book, "Ed Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate."

The first part of the salutation was preserved in recognition and respect to the traditions set forth by the Chinese. The concluding portion of the salutation was added to tie in the heritage of the "old" with the logic of the "new" and innovative fighting science. There is a misconception this came from Mitose. These movements have always existed in one form or another in the Chinese, and were not new. Although Mitose did come to use the hand gestures, they were usually used independent of each other, and not in the inclusive pattern those of American kenpo are familiar with.

The second part of the salutation interprets as an explanation of the original Kenpo Creed by Ed Parker that does not use the word "karate" which was inadvertently recited later.

I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.)

I now cover my weapon, my fist which is my treasure, for I do not wish to use it. (Your left open hand is used to conceal your right clenched fist.)

Now that I am being forced to use my weapon, to momentarily become an animal, I pray for forgiveness for what I may do. (Both hands are placed together as if praying.)

The salutation ends by outwardly circling the clawing hands and arms in an outward clawing movement coming to attention. (Warding away all evil in my presence and letting nothing deter me from my goal and moral convictions)

The reasons for the Scholar/Warrior analogy are important. Within the Chinese Culture there was a very strong caste system in place. The truly educated were privileged and considered too "valuable" to fight in wars and conflict once they reached a certain status. Therefore it was the "warrior" who fought but he was directed by the "scholar" in the ways of Martial Science. That is, the warrior didn't always understand the methods of his fighting, all he knew was that it "worked." The scholars devised the methods and manner of the execution of the training and the implementation of the "fighting sciences," while the "warriors" went forth and performed as instructed.

The combination of the "warrior and scholar" in a singular person was rare once the "warrior" graduated to "scholar" status. Not because the scholar couldn't fight, (after all they had first hand knowledge,) but simply because the knowledge was so valuable, the chance could not be taken that they would be killed or injured in battle or conflict. So it is today. The truly scholarly teacher directs his students in the methods that will cause them to be successful, however because it is a true science, the student may not always understand "why" things work, only that they do. Some students will come to understand more than others based on simple things as intellect and personal conviction and length of study. The scholar and warrior insure the co-existence of each other. The warrior would not exist without the directions of the scholar, and without the warrior to train, the scholar would have no purpose.

 

[True2Kenpo]

Just seeing if my logo works at the bottom.

Thanks,
Josh

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
I have heard that interpretation as well as many others, but none of them were written down to my knowledge by Mr. Parker.



For that you would have to ask Larry, as it would only be appropriate to ask him his reasons for what he has done.

The American Kenpo Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new.” The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. (2) Respect to those who would observe the movements. (3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science.

During the period of the Shao-lin in the Ch'ing Dynasty, the meaning of the gesture changed when two additional movements were added. The change was that the left hand represented the sun, the right hand the moon. With this change, the combination of sun and moon represented the Chinese character Ming, thus meaning "revolutionary defenders for the cause of the Ming restoration." The two additional movements that were added to the sun and the moon were formed by placing the back of the hands together with both palms out. The fingers at this point were in a claw-like-fashion and raised to the chest and heart. This gesture meant,

"We are against foreign invasion and our hearts are for China." The last movement was to clench both hands and draw them to the sides of the waist. This pulling gesture meant, "By pulling and working together we can take our country back." The Hungs, who were secret triad societies in China, perpetuated these movements. In short, "Scholar and warrior, united together, back to back, pulling together, to defend against the foreign intruders.”

The execution of this can be seen in and is explained in the book, "Ed Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate."

The first part of the salutation was preserved in recognition and respect to the traditions set forth by the Chinese. The concluding portion of the salutation was added to tie in the heritage of the "old" with the logic of the "new" and innovative fighting science. There is a misconception this came from Mitose. These movements have always existed in one form or another in the Chinese, and were not new. Although Mitose did come to use the hand gestures, they were usually used independent of each other, and not in the inclusive pattern those of American kenpo are familiar with.

The second part of the salutation interprets as an explanation of the original Kenpo Creed by Ed Parker that does not use the word "karate" which was inadvertently recited later.

I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.)

I now cover my weapon, my fist which is my treasure, for I do not wish to use it. (Your left open hand is used to conceal your right clenched fist.)

Now that I am being forced to use my weapon, to momentarily become an animal, I pray for forgiveness for what I may do. (Both hands are placed together as if praying.)

The salutation ends by outwardly circling the clawing hands and arms in an outward clawing movement coming to attention. (Warding away all evil in my presence and letting nothing deter me from my goal and moral convictions)

The reasons for the Scholar/Warrior analogy are important. Within the Chinese Culture there was a very strong caste system in place. The truly educated were privileged and considered too "valuable" to fight in wars and conflict once they reached a certain status. Therefore it was the "warrior" who fought but he was directed by the "scholar" in the ways of Martial Science. That is, the warrior didn't always understand the methods of his fighting, all he knew was that it "worked." The scholars devised the methods and manner of the execution of the training and the implementation of the "fighting sciences," while the "warriors" went forth and performed as instructed.

The combination of the "warrior and scholar" in a singular person was rare once the "warrior" graduated to "scholar" status. Not because the scholar couldn't fight, (after all they had first hand knowledge,) but simply because the knowledge was so valuable, the chance could not be taken that they would be killed or injured in battle or conflict. So it is today. The truly scholarly teacher directs his students in the methods that will cause them to be successful, however because it is a true science, the student may not always understand "why" things work, only that they do. Some students will come to understand more than others based on simple things as intellect and personal conviction and length of study. The scholar and warrior insure the co-existence of each other. The warrior would not exist without the directions of the scholar, and without the warrior to train, the scholar would have no purpose.

Thank you sir, that would have to be the most in depth and informative explanation I have ever seen or heard with regards to the salutation.

In regards to asking "Larry", could one of you senior guys ask and relay, or would it be possible to get him on here in person?
Failing that, would you have a mailing address, email or otherwise, for him?

--Dave

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'd recommend calling and asking Mr. Tatum--studio number's 626/796-4029--or e-mailing via the website.

But what changes in the salutation? Ain't seen any, and I've been there ten years.

I suspect the confusion's coming out of the Long 6 tapes...with Long Form 4, 5, 6 and beyond, the salutation doesn't change but the form's application of it does. Up through Long 3, you sign for the form, do the salutation, and work out of a meditating horse stance. But with Long 4, the kata begins (well, it actually starts with the salutation, but you get my point) from an attention stance, immediately after the horse stance gets closed. With Long 5, the form "begins," right from the "praying hands," part of the salutation. Some of the point, apparently, is to remind us that we don't always get, "ready, steady, go," before the rumble starts.

With Long 6, you make those, "kissing circles," and start into, "Glancing Lance," the first named technique, right from an attention stance. It's done to state a very basic theme of the form, among other things. There's a good clear explanation of the Long 6 tape...

And, I should add, that all the forms still end with the same old salutation.

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Is my history a little rusty, or didn't Mitose teach Chow, who taught Parker?

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
Is my history a little rusty, or didn't Mitose teach Chow, who taught Parker?

The following is a direct quote from the "Budo International" magazine, May 2002.........

The article is titled "Hawaiian Kenpo". and discusses a few different viewpoints concerning the relationship between Mitose and Chow. The following seems pertinent to your question.

"Although William K.S. Chow was an expert in Ch'uan Fa, when he met James M. Mitose in 1942, he was grateful for the opportunity to increase his knowledge of the martial arts.
They formed "Self-Defense Club" together, and Chow and the rest of the instructors selected Mitose to be the head of the club. Mitose's family system was called Kempo Jiu Jitsu. Together with Thomas S. Young, the auxiliary instructor who had a solid base in Kung-ugh, Chow and Mitose exchanged ideas and created techniques for three years. Around 1946 the data varies depending on its source but it seems that Mitose awarded Chow the black belt in Kempo Jiu Jitsu. Soon after Chow and Mitose separated, although they never stopped being good friends. They learnt a lot from one another and they visited each others schoolsuntil Mitose left Honolulu in 1953.
When Chow left the "Self-Defense Club" he called his system Kenpo Chinese Karate, and he changed its pronunciation to Kenpo (with "n") to differentiate its style from that of Mitose."

I hope this helps.

--Dave


:asian: