Kenpo Family Tree

John Bishop

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I've added the Kenpo family tree to my website. I have maintained this tree for about 15 years. Some of you may have seen it in some of my magazine articles, or on the net. I try to keep it updated with the various kenpo sub-systems as they evolve. If you know of any legitimate kenpo subsystems that should be added, please let me know.

http://interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/kenpofamilytree.cfm
 

Sigung86

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At the risk of unleashing a hailstorm and flame, I would like to suggest that what Doctor Chapel is doing that it could be legitimately considered to be a Kenpo subsystem.

At any rate John, it might be well worth a small amount of time to contact the Good Doctor and see what you think. I don't like people to take my word for anything. :lol:

Take care,

Dan Farmer
 

jazkiljok

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Originally posted by John Bishop
I've added the Kenpo family tree to my website. I have maintained this tree for about 15 years. Some of you may have seen it in some of my magazine articles, or on the net. I try to keep it updated with the various kenpo sub-systems as they evolve. If you know of any legitimate kenpo subsystems that should be added, please let me know.

http://interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/kenpofamilytree.cfm

what's your standard to add subsystems?- i notice you have some rather obscure one's there like "schu fu"? the reason i ask is that so many folks have put their own "Brand name" to their "Kenpo" product - with some minor research you could add dozens of subsystems and have a more extensive tree.

but what makes a subsystem valid or legitimate? and if only a handful of people train in these subsystems- what's the compelling reason to add them at all? shouldn't popularity and a reasonable expectation of the "systems" continuance beyond the creator's lifetime be a part of the equation?

also- i believe that Tino Tuilosega wrote in black belt magazine that he wasn't a student of Mr. Parker but a contemporary and doesn't see his system of Limalama under Parker's.

peace


:asian:
 
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John Bishop

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Yes, I could add another 40-50 kenpo subsystems to the tree, but there are some criteria. First off the founder has to actually be a legitimate kenpo black belt. I've been contacted by several so-called "Soke's" and "Sijo's", who have trained with several high ranking kenpo instructors. I don't consider attending someones 3 hour seminar as justification to refer to them as your instructor. I also don't consider a brown belt from one instructor and 2 green belts from a couple others to quailfy one to start their own system, and self promote themselves.
Some of the subsystems listed may be obscure or regional, but the people who started them are legit and they do have generations of black belts in their system. One example would be "SamPai" kenpo. It was founded by Joe Dimmick. Joe is a 1st generation black belt under Mr. Parker. His system has been going for close to 30 years, and there are at least 3 generations of black belts under him.
As to several of the early subsystems listed, Mr. Parker told me about them, so I figured if he considered them a off shot of his style, that was enough verification.
As to Tino Tuilosega, I've had the discussions with him about the mysterious origins of Limalama on the island of Samoa. And I personally know/knew 4 of the founding members of the Limalama organization. Truth of the matter is that he WAS one of Mr. Parker's black belts. (Ask anybody who trained with Mr. Parker in the 60s. In fact many of todays martial arts stars like Danny Inosanto, and Gary Dill were Ed Parker graduates.) Two of the other black belts who founded the the Limalama organization (Richard Nunez, Saul Esquival) were Kajukenbo Kenpo black belts. The first 3 Limalama katas are Kajukenbo forms. Now according to "the legend of Limalama" , Samoan warriors captured Japanese soldiers during World War II and forced them to teach their martial arts to the Samoans. So thats why Limalama stylist's use rapid fire hand techniques and do Kajukenbo katas? Don't sound like Shotokan to me. Anyway, that's another story.
 

jazkiljok

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first off- let me say here you've done a great job with your website. As one of the most important movements in American Martial Art history- it's nice to see it so well represented by your website. BTW while visiting your site in dawned on me that i must have a dozen of your articles in magazines i've collected over the years- it's great for you to be here sharing your research and knowledge.

Originally posted by John Bishop
Yes, I could add another 40-50 kenpo subsystems to the tree, but there are some criteria. First off the founder has to actually be a legitimate kenpo black belt. I've been contacted by several so-called "Soke's" and "Sijo's", who have trained with several high ranking kenpo instructors. I don't consider attending someones 3 hour seminar as justification to refer to them as your instructor. I also don't consider a brown belt from one instructor and 2 green belts from a couple others to quailfy one to start their own system, and self promote themselves.

now i agree-that's good basic criteria-- but i guess i was wondering beyond the person themselves who may well be excellent martial artists from legitimate training what exactly constitutes a subsystem? It seems quite a few folks are simply adding some forms from different styles, some grappling to their based striking and declaring they have a new or different "system" if thats the case then anyone who learns and teaches mix martial arts could freely be added to the tree as long as they meet the basic criteria you outlined.

Originally posted by John Bishop
Some of the subsystems listed may be obscure or regional, but the people who started them are legit and they do have generations of black belts in their system. One example would be "SamPai" kenpo. It was founded by Joe Dimmick. Joe is a 1st generation black belt under Mr. Parker. His system has been going for close to 30 years, and there are at least 3 generations of black belts under him.

exactly - all excellent reasons- 30 years of existence- 3 generations of black belts- schools operating under the name of the art etc. this is a qualified candidate. but why Schuf fu? seems like you've open the door too wide there?

Originally posted by John Bishop
[BAs to several of the early subsystems listed, Mr. Parker told me about them, so I figured if he considered them a off shot of his style, that was enough verification[/B]

well- who can argue with that.;)

Originally posted by John Bishop
[BAs to Tino Tuilosega, I've had the discussions with him about the mysterious origins of Limalama on the island of Samoa. And I personally know/knew 4 of the founding members of the Limalama organization. Truth of the matter is that he WAS one of Mr. Parker's black belts. (Ask anybody who trained with Mr. Parker in the 60s. In fact many of todays martial arts stars like Danny Inosanto, and Gary Dill were Ed Parker graduates.) Two of the other black belts who founded the the Limalama organization (Richard Nunez, Saul Esquival) were Kajukenbo Kenpo black belts. The first 3 Limalama katas are Kajukenbo forms. Now according to "the legend of Limalama" , Samoan warriors captured Japanese soldiers during World War II and forced them to teach their martial arts to the Samoans. So thats why Limalama stylist's use rapid fire hand techniques and do Kajukenbo katas? Don't sound like Shotokan to me. Anyway, that's another story. [/B]

samoan warriors CAPTURE japanese soldiers who are then forced to teach their martial arts to the guys who beat them? sounds like they got it the other way around :rolleyes:

but that said- it's interesting that the originator of a legitimate system can't always be trusted to represent the facts correctly -- excuse me now- i'm going outside to see if the sky falls .:asian:
 

bdparsons

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I would suggest including Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux and their Karate Connection Chinese Kenpo in your Kenpo Family Tree. Mr. Steve Muhhamed gives a great deal of credit to Mr. Sullivan in the history of BKF Kenpo (ref: "The Journey").

Respects,
Bill Parsons
 
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John Bishop

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jazkiljok:

You know, honestly I don't remember when or why I included Carroll Shumacher on the kenpo tree. If there is some reason you feel his subsystem should not be on the tree feel free to tell me.

Originally I started this family tree to help myself and others find out what their Kenpo roots were. In my research I started running into so many variations of Kenpo that I started conecting the lines.
In 1990, I did a article on William Chow for "Inside Karate". I included this tree in the article. After that I started getting letters from around the country from people telling me that they had never knew their roots.
Example; In 1962 George Pesare started teaching Kenpo on the east coast. From his lines came Nick Cerio, Don Rodriguez, Fred Vallari, Charles Mattera, Roger Carpenter, etc. George learned his Kenpo in Burbank, Calif from Victor Sonny Gascon. George moved to Rhode Island, Victor moved back to Hawaii, and they lost contact with each other. Victor never talked about who his instructor was (Sijo Emperado), they just trained. When my kenpo tree was published everyone on the east coast finally found their roots. And 10 years later in 2000, they brought Sonny Gascon to the east coast to meet the generations of Kajukenbo/Kenpo people that had come from his lines.

I'm sure some of these subsystems have very minor changes from their root system, and some have major changes.

Back to Limalama. Dan Guzman told me that after the organization was founded his 2 students (Richard Nunez, Saul Esquival) that were involved in the founding invited him to visit their classes. He said after watching their workouts the only way he could describe it was "like someone had moved around all the furniture in their house and then tried to tell you it was a differant house". In other words they were doing Kajukenbo/Kenpo with a few changes.

I guess what I'm trying to say about the tree is that it is NOT meant to be a certification of the legitimacy of a subsystem, but as a tool for instructors and students to trace the roots of a subsystem. More importantly it is to give credit to men like William Chow, Adriano Emperado, and Edmund Parker, whose teachings have contributed so much to the spread of American/Hawaiian martial arts in the world.
 

Zoran

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Thank you for having John McSweeney to the list. You may want to change "White Tiger Kenpo" to maybe "Kenpo". "White Tiger Kenpo" is just a name for Tom Saviano's, a McSweeney student, school that eventually evolved to being the name of the system. John McSweeney never used that name for his system, he just called it Kenpo. He wasn't very big on labels or names.

Thanks!
 

KENPOJOE

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Originally posted by John Bishop
jazkiljok:

You know, honestly I don't remember when or why I included Carroll Shumacher on the kenpo tree. If there is some reason you feel his subsystem should not be on the tree feel free to tell me.

Originally I started this family tree to help myself and others find out what their Kenpo roots were. In my research I started running into so many variations of Kenpo that I started conecting the lines.
In 1990, I did a article on William Chow for "Inside Karate". I included this tree in the article. After that I started getting letters from around the country from people telling me that they had never knew their roots.
Example; In 1962 George Pesare started teaching Kenpo on the east coast. From his lines came Nick Cerio, Don Rodriguez, Fred Vallari, Charles Mattera, Roger Carpenter, etc. George learned his Kenpo in Burbank, Calif from Victor Sonny Gascon. George moved to Rhode Island, Victor moved back to Hawaii, and they lost contact with each other. Victor never talked about who his instructor was (Sijo Emperado), they just trained. When my kenpo tree was published everyone on the east coast finally found their roots. And 10 years later in 2000, they brought Sonny Gascon to the east coast to meet the generations of Kajukenbo/Kenpo people that had come from his lines.

I'm sure some of these subsystems have very minor changes from their root system, and some have major changes.

Back to Limalama. Dan Guzman told me that after the organization was founded his 2 students (Richard Nunez, Saul Esquival) that were involved in the founding invited him to visit their classes. He said after watching their workouts the only way he could describe it was "like someone had moved around all the furniture in their house and then tried to tell you it was a differant house". In other words they were doing Kajukenbo/Kenpo with a few changes.

I guess what I'm trying to say about the tree is that it is NOT meant to be a certification of the legitimacy of a subsystem, but as a tool for instructors and students to trace the roots of a subsystem. More importantly it is to give credit to men like William Chow, Adriano Emperado, and Edmund Parker, whose teachings have contributed so much to the spread of American/Hawaiian martial arts in the world.

Hi John!
I'm not sure if you remember me but we have emailed and spoken on at least one occasion and I wanted to make some comments and corrections.
1. In regards to Schu Fu, I've had the pleasure of talking to Carroll on the phone as I was introduced to him by one of his main instructors, Parker Linekin. You could ask carroll for a family tree of his Black Belts to see how far the lineage goes...
2.regarding the Karazenpo Goshinjutsu lineage, there are a couple of names you have spelled incorrectly. It is Fred Villari, not Vallari, and it's Don Rodrigues, not Rodriguez. Also, for the most part, I've never heard Fred Villari ever refer to his art as "American Shaolin Kempo" rather, it was simply refered to as "Shaolin Kempo".
I hope that I was of some service,
Joseph P. Rebelo II
[email protected]
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
:::getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:
 
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John Bishop

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Hi Joe:

Yes, I remember you. I will make the spelling corrections and a few more corrections/additions that were suggested.
Out here on the west coast the Villari's schools were using the term "American Shoalin Kempo" probably because everyone here associated "Shaolin Kenpo" with Ralph Castro's group.
 

Doc

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Originally posted by John Bishop
I've added the Kenpo family tree to my website. I have maintained this tree for about 15 years. Some of you may have seen it in some of my magazine articles, or on the net. I try to keep it updated with the various kenpo sub-systems as they evolve. If you know of any legitimate kenpo subsystems that should be added, please let me know.

http://interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/kenpofamilytree.cfm

Well sir, if you mean out of the mainstream from what is generally commercially taught I guess you could throw in my "SubLevel Four Kenpo Concepts." I would say the same for Steve Herrings "Chinese Kenpo."

I've always liked your writing.

Ron Chap矇l
 

Doc

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Originally posted by John Bishop
Yes, I could add another 40-50 kenpo subsystems to the tree, but there are some criteria. First off the founder has to actually be a legitimate kenpo black belt. I've been contacted by several so-called "Soke's" and "Sijo's", who have trained with several high ranking kenpo instructors. I don't consider attending someones 3 hour seminar as justification to refer to them as your instructor. I also don't consider a brown belt from one instructor and 2 green belts from a couple others to quailfy one to start their own system, and self promote themselves.
Some of the subsystems listed may be obscure or regional, but the people who started them are legit and they do have generations of black belts in their system. One example would be "SamPai" kenpo. It was founded by Joe Dimmick. Joe is a 1st generation black belt under Mr. Parker. His system has been going for close to 30 years, and there are at least 3 generations of black belts under him.
As to several of the early subsystems listed, Mr. Parker told me about them, so I figured if he considered them a off shot of his style, that was enough verification.
As to Tino Tuilosega, I've had the discussions with him about the mysterious origins of Limalama on the island of Samoa. And I personally know/knew 4 of the founding members of the Limalama organization. Truth of the matter is that he WAS one of Mr. Parker's black belts. (Ask anybody who trained with Mr. Parker in the 60s. In fact many of todays martial arts stars like Danny Inosanto, and Gary Dill were Ed Parker graduates.) Two of the other black belts who founded the the Limalama organization (Richard Nunez, Saul Esquival) were Kajukenbo Kenpo black belts. The first 3 Limalama katas are Kajukenbo forms. Now according to "the legend of Limalama" , Samoan warriors captured Japanese soldiers during World War II and forced them to teach their martial arts to the Samoans. So thats why Limalama stylist's use rapid fire hand techniques and do Kajukenbo katas? Don't sound like Shotokan to me. Anyway, that's another story.

Of course you are right. It was no secret Tino studied with Parker. In fact the idea of "Lima Lama" was suggested by Ed Parker. I knew Richard and "Sal" very well and go back pretty far with Tino. The fact is Kajukenbo was the "base" system for Lima Lama. Although there were some significant changes made when Richard and Sal split off from Tino to form their own branch, Kajukenbo remained paramount in their teaching along with Kenpo. Danny will tell you that.
 
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John Bishop

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Thanks for the nice comments Doc. We met a few times at tournaments in the 80s, Bob White's, Sol Kaihewalu, and Joe Rosas's . I also have some friends that were working for the state police with you back in the 70s.
I will be making some changes and additions to the tree as soon as my webmaster has a chance.
 

Doc

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Originally posted by John Bishop
Thanks for the nice comments Doc. We met a few times at tournaments in the 80s, Bob White's, Sol Kaihewalu, and Joe Rosas's. I also have some friends that were working for the state police with you back in the 70s.
I will be making some changes and additions to the tree as soon as my webmaster has a chance.

Please don't "date" us in front of the youngsters. ;)

I've always enjoyed your writing because you were always so well informed. Most weren't but you do your research. For the life of me I can't bring your face up on my "old hard drive." So many years, and so many tournaments, and then there is that "Internationals" thing that really blurs my memory. If I bump into you at "Trejo's Tournament" dinner is on me.

No more "State Police," I like the Feds better (for a little while longer anyway.)

Stay safe.
 
R

RCastillo

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Originally posted by John Bishop
I've added the Kenpo family tree to my website. I have maintained this tree for about 15 years. Some of you may have seen it in some of my magazine articles, or on the net. I try to keep it updated with the various kenpo sub-systems as they evolve. If you know of any legitimate kenpo subsystems that should be added, please let me know.

http://interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/kenpofamilytree.cfm

Very interesting! Thank you for posting the tree.:asian:
 
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