Katas / Forms

[Wey]

I suppose this thread reflects on my personal training, we learn the katas and bunkai, but not the techniques. Pardon my ignorance, everyone. I've only been training for 2 years, I still have a lot to learn. Thanks for the responses. =]

 

[Moebius]

Katas = karate

I am not sure how you can learn the katas and bunkai and not learn the techniques. Kata training is great for training techniques.

In my experiences katas are fundamental to karate training. As many have said there is much to learn from katas: bunkai, movement, balance, technique... Every kata even the shortest with few moves can teach. The hard part is "penetrating the kata" or understanding it. At some time you will reach a point where it will feel like a curtain has been lifted and you will feel the kata and understand it much better.

Try developing your own bunkai from kata and question to yourself what each move means. In the olden days people would learn one kata and practice that one kata for an entire year before learning another. There is much to gain from katas.

 

[Wey]

I mean we learn the techniques, just not enough practice of them on each other. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What is your opinion on katas/forms? I enjoy their artistic / physical requirements, but I think the simpler katas need to be done away with.

In the systems that I train in, the simpler kata form the basis for later kata. For the rank beginner who has no MA experience at all, such basic kata are a good start and enable them to start moving, so to speak.

The simple turn, block, punch, step forward punch katas don't seem to really teach anything, except for basic moves that can be more efficiently practiced other ways.

Well, they teach you to transition and to move in a manner consistent with the system.

Your opinion?

My opinion is that if you feel the kata to be to basic and should be discarded in favor of more effective methods of teaching, then by all means, do so with your own students.

I am not personally inclined to do so with mine, as I find even the basic kata useful and important building blocks within the systems that I study.

Daniel

 

[Moebius]

In response to Wey:
Sure that makes sense. It can be hard to practice bunkai with out a partner outside the dojo. But if you can't physically practice bunkai you can always think through it. What I mean is that you can go through mental exercises focused on bunkai.

For example when walking through a store you can go through a move set in your mind. If I see a big guy walking toward me in the grocery store I think "ok, lets pretend he really wants the beer in my shopping cart and decides to attack me." Well what moves would he likely use? Bunkai from what kata would work well? And mentally go through it. Then when you get to the dojo find someone to try out your thoughts.

Just a suggestion.
Happy training.

 

[Andrew Green]

For example when walking through a store you can go through a move set in your mind. If I see a big guy walking toward me in the grocery store I think "ok, lets pretend he really wants the beer in my shopping cart and decides to attack me." Well what moves would he likely use? Bunkai from what kata would work well? And mentally go through it. Then when you get to the dojo find someone to try out your thoughts.

Give him the beer, go grab another case. You haven't paid for it as you are still in the store, besides he is likely on camera

Personally I wouldn't advise people to walk around and think about what they would do if everyone they encountered attacked them. That seems like a way of leading to a very unhealthy mindset in the wrong person, one of paranoia and ego, which could easily turn from a training exercise into a fantasy.

 

[Moebius]

Give him the beer, go grab another case. You haven't paid for it as you are still in the store, besides he is likely on camera

Personally I wouldn't advise people to walk around and think about what they would do if everyone they encountered attacked them. That seems like a way of leading to a very unhealthy mindset in the wrong person, one of paranoia and ego, which could easily turn from a training exercise into a fantasy.

Well I can see your point for sure. And I definitely would give him the beer unless I was in the deli section which is very far from the beer cooler.

It is true that there can be a thin line between being prepared and being paranoid. The trick is to treat it as the exercise it is. I think a mature mind should be able to separate fact from fiction.

 

[Grenadier]

The Taikyoku / Kihon Kata / Fukyu forms are indeed simple to learn, but it's the simplicity that gives it strength of worth and makes it a good tool.

Think about it this way: because they are so simple, it becomes easier for the practitioner to focus on one of the many aspects of throwing a good technique, while not having to worry about complex sequences. This way, he can focus on a single task at a time, continuing to practice that task, until he is used to throwing such a technique with good quality. Once someone doesn't have to think about it, then they're ready to take on the more advanced learning.

Your neophytes don't have to worry about whether or not they have to pivot at a 135 degree angle, or whether they make a stance transition from sochin dachi to zen kutsu dachi. They don't have to think about whether or not their mawashi-uke are circling with the utmost of precision, or using the correct timing. That would simply make things too complex for the average person starting out.

Furthermore, by developing good quality techniques through the simpler kata, the practitioner gets a better understanding of *how* the body works, and can apply those same mechanical principles to the more advanced techniques.

This is true of any martial arts system that employs kata, be it empty hand, or weaponry employing. If anything, the more advanced kata are going to build another foundation from which a practitioner can learn the most advanced kata in the system.

For example, your average shodan candidate in a Karate system is probably going to know the Taikyoku / Kihon kata series, along with the Pinan / Heian kata series, and most likely, kata Naihanchi. Once they've demonstrated that they have a good understanding of the fundamentals involved in each of those kata, then they're ready to start learning their first advanced kata, which will probably be Kanku Dai / Kusanku / Kosokun, or something similar.

To have them starting right away on Kanku Dai / Kusanku would be too challenging of a task for most of your students, and many would quit out of frustration, or wouldn't be getting much benefit from learning the advanced kata.

Another example, is for the freshly minted Shodan rank holders. Some of them ask me to teach them kata Unsu (one of the most advanced kata in many systems), but I simply tell them to wait, until they have learned Passai, Wanshu, and Jion, and, preferably, Kusanku Sho. This way, I know that they will have had enough training in the fundamentals that each of those kata teach, and that they will be ready to tackle on the task of learning Unsu.

I can tell you right away, that if I tried to teach a newly minted Shodan kata Unsu, that you'd see wobbly legs, poor balance, bad timing, and this can be a great cause of frustration in a student. If I waited until that student were Nidan, then you would see a student who can learn the kata more easily, and not experience nearly as much frustration, since they have a better understanding of how the body works. A lot of this understanding can be developed by practicing the above moentioned kata first, and becoming proficient at them.

 

[clfsean]

Give him the beer, go grab another case. You haven't paid for it as you are still in the store, besides he is likely on camera

Truth

Personally I wouldn't advise people to walk around and think about what they would do if everyone they encountered attacked them. That seems like a way of leading to a very unhealthy mindset in the wrong person, one of paranoia and ego, which could easily turn from a training exercise into a fantasy.

More of the same truth

 

[Moebius]

Just for the record I am not advocating going around thinking that everyone is out to get you, even if they are. I am advocating the idea of going through mental exercises when you can't go through physical ones. This concept is hardly new and frankly is part of the martial training mindset. I know not a single martial artist who does not think about self defense outside the dojo.

The pluses and minuses of always assuming that someone will attack you can be discussed another time.

 

[shihansmurf]

The Taikyoku / Kihon Kata / Fukyu forms are indeed simple to learn, but it's the simplicity that gives it strength of worth and makes it a good tool.

Think about it this way: because they are so simple, it becomes easier for the practitioner to focus on one of the many aspects of throwing a good technique, while not having to worry about complex sequences. This way, he can focus on a single task at a time, continuing to practice that task, until he is used to throwing such a technique with good quality. Once someone doesn't have to think about it, then they're ready to take on the more advanced learning.

Your neophytes don't have to worry about whether or not they have to pivot at a 135 degree angle, or whether they make a stance transition from sochin dachi to zen kutsu dachi. They don't have to think about whether or not their mawashi-uke are circling with the utmost of precision, or using the correct timing. That would simply make things too complex for the average person starting out.

Furthermore, by developing good quality techniques through the simpler kata, the practitioner gets a better understanding of *how* the body works, and can apply those same mechanical principles to the more advanced techniques.

This is true of any martial arts system that employs kata, be it empty hand, or weaponry employing. If anything, the more advanced kata are going to build another foundation from which a practitioner can learn the most advanced kata in the system.

For example, your average shodan candidate in a Karate system is probably going to know the Taikyoku / Kihon kata series, along with the Pinan / Heian kata series, and most likely, kata Naihanchi. Once they've demonstrated that they have a good understanding of the fundamentals involved in each of those kata, then they're ready to start learning their first advanced kata, which will probably be Kanku Dai / Kusanku / Kosokun, or something similar.

To have them starting right away on Kanku Dai / Kusanku would be too challenging of a task for most of your students, and many would quit out of frustration, or wouldn't be getting much benefit from learning the advanced kata.

Another example, is for the freshly minted Shodan rank holders. Some of them ask me to teach them kata Unsu (one of the most advanced kata in many systems), but I simply tell them to wait, until they have learned Passai, Wanshu, and Jion, and, preferably, Kusanku Sho. This way, I know that they will have had enough training in the fundamentals that each of those kata teach, and that they will be ready to tackle on the task of learning Unsu.

I can tell you right away, that if I tried to teach a newly minted Shodan kata Unsu, that you'd see wobbly legs, poor balance, bad timing, and this can be a great cause of frustration in a student. If I waited until that student were Nidan, then you would see a student who can learn the kata more easily, and not experience nearly as much frustration, since they have a better understanding of how the body works. A lot of this understanding can be developed by practicing the above moentioned kata first, and becoming proficient at them.

I honestly could say QFT for your entire post! Well said.

I am very fond of the Taikyoky kata precisly because they are "simple", and therefore there is a lot less extraneous movement to strip away when you are working the applications. I think that the material is, due to its simplicity, much easier to internalize to the degree that the techniques are usefull in a fight/sparring match. Additionally, the simple block/counter punch combo that is so heavily utilized in the Taikyoku form(s) is one of the most generally usefull fighting techniques that any martial artist can learn and for that reason, I think more than any other, that combo is repeated so extensively throughout the more advanced forms as well.

Mark

 

[shihansmurf]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm not seeing why any kata or even set of exercises would be useless and 'done away with'. They're all part of a whole, and incredibly useful.

Nobody does kata in a real fight. But kata is where you learn the practical application of the moves taught in kata, and kata repetition builds body and muscle memory and speed/power should increase, as well as reaction times decrease.

Anyway, that's how I see it - and being a newbie, please feel free to ignore this, I'm no expert.

I agree 100%

Admittedly, the importance of kata training is debateable and it is certainly a more effective medium for some students than others, but I think that the idea of doing away with any exercise that isn't directly harmfull to the student to be an incredibly bad idea. Hell, I cringe whenever I hear someone say something to the effect of "Since Kata isn't immediately effective for combat aplications then we should do away with them". From my own personal experience, I can say that I had performed the Tekki/Naihanchi katas for quite a few years untill I realized that by adjusting your foot work a lot of the blocking techniques can become locking/joint breaking techniques. If I had simply "done away with " those kata since the benifit wasn't immediately obvious I would have missed out on several good techniques. I've had students point out an application that I had never considered because their perspective on the arts is different than mine. Had I simply tossed the material aside that I didn't find immediately usefull I wouldn't have been able to pass it on to my students .


People don't do kata in real fight, true, but the attributes that kata training ingrains and reinforces are invaluable in a real fight. Kata training teaches a great deal of body alignment, footwork, proper breathing techniques, fluidity in motion, and such. The bunkai are a nice bonus. Speaking of which, bunkai is more than just knowing the moves intellectually. In order to use the applications of the kata motions the material must be drilled in isolation from the form. After that then they can be use in one step training, first formally with classic stance work and stylized movements, then from a freestyle type stance and with streamlined movements. Staring off the drills as compliant partner typ work, then moving into a more compettitve "alive" type of training where the attacker uses the move that the particular kata move's bunkai is for and the defender uses the movement from the kata is a great way of internalizing the bunkai. Now some of the applications can't be trainind in this way due to the type of technique or for safety reasons, but all of the Block/counter, and a large protion of the locking/throwing applications can.

I wouldn't think of ignoring your view on this because you're a newbie. People who are fresh to the study of the arts have an interesting advantage on us veteran types. You guys aren't jaded by overexposure to the system in the manner that a lot of us guys that have been at this for a couple of decades are. Your perspective allows you to see things in a different light than mine, and too ofter very experienced martial artists miss out on learning something new because they are unwilling to listen to a novice. Its a serious mistake. I wouldn't pre-judge an attackers skill level on the street so I don't judge the worth of the opinion of a fellow martial artist based solely on the length of time he has been training. This applies to the other end of the spectrum as well. Just cause a person has been at this for longer than me doesn't automatically make their views correct. I think it is a better practice to wait and reserve my judgement of the value of a person's opinion based on the strength of what they are saying.

Mark

 

[jks9199]

Just for the record I am not advocating going around thinking that everyone is out to get you, even if they are. I am advocating the idea of going through mental exercises when you can't go through physical ones. This concept is hardly new and frankly is part of the martial training mindset. I know not a single martial artist who does not think about self defense outside the dojo.

The pluses and minuses of always assuming that someone will attack you can be discussed another time.

Playing "what if" is a good exercise. There's a story of a rookie out on patrol with his field training officer. They passed the same "stop & rob" convenience store several times in the course of the shift... and as they passed it yet again, the FTO asked him "How many times has that place been robbed?"

The rookie racks his brain, trying to remember the crime stats and information, but finally admits he doesn't know, and the FTO answers him "Eight times, tonight. Every time we've passed it, I've planned how to handle it if I looked over and saw a robbery."

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I also meant to say that I've noticed several people (including in this thread) mention how they've discovered applications in the katas, sometimes years after initially learning them.

I am so pleased that I have a group of senseis who believe firmly in opening up the katas and teaching bunkai as I learn, to the extent that they feel I am ready. For me, it makes the katas come alive. One of my senseis is a very experienced godan, and he tells me that he was never shown many of the 'hidden' applications in the katas until he took seminars with Master Harril (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Harrill) that he had his eyes opened, so he now tries to pass that along to students who appear ready, able, and desirous of learning more advanced techniques that are in the katas. I guess not everyone has the same sort of instructors - I sure do value mine.

Another thing we emphasize in my dojo is working the backside of the katas. We pair up, and one person runs through the kata while the other person is the adversary, forcing the kata moves. So in Seisan, the opening middle-body block is precipitated by the person working the backside throwing a right punch (for example). By working the front of the kata with someone else on the backside, you can clearly understand what you're throwing the technique in order to accomplish, and things start to fall into place. I am really slow picking it up, but I do love to learn it.

 

[Haze]

Simple or advanced kata is not based on the kata itself but as I see it, it is based on the amount of knowledge and experience one has.

As years in the arts go by a student will/should start to see for themselves that what he once saw in a kata as far as bunkai is concerned has grown to a more elaborate base of knowledge and understanding.

All kata contains relatively simple moves that any human body is capable of doing.

I had an instructor once start to show me some "hidden moves".

I made the statement that "those moves are not "hidden" in the kata. They are moves from other kata and you are just flowing from one technique to another technique that is not used in this kata"

His reply to me was, "You're starting to understand the art of combat now."

 

[seasoned]

Just for the record I am not advocating going around thinking that everyone is out to get you, even if they are. I am advocating the idea of going through mental exercises when you can't go through physical ones. This concept is hardly new and frankly is part of the martial training mindset. I know not a single martial artist who does not think about self defense outside the dojo.

The pluses and minuses of always assuming that someone will attack you can be discussed another time.

Good point. Although, it is obvious that we need to train physically, it all starts in the mind. Mental imaging is an intricate part of any endeavor. In mental training I never make mistakes, and I win every battle. Couple that with kata, drills, and some realistic sparring, and it is called "the whole ball of wax".

 

[seasoned]

15 to 20 kata was never the intent, when karate was developed for what it is, a killing art. Some of the earliest practitioners knew only a very few, which contained, their most favorite techniques. It is also well documented that these same early forerunners of the arts valued life and limb over teaching students. For this reason, these favorite techniques were hidden to preserve them for that persons personal use if need be. When teaching took place it was among family, and loyal friends, and not to everyone that wanted to learn. Just my 2 cents to throw into the mix here. :asian:

 

[Jin Gang]

I think kata like taikyoku and fukyugata, and even pinan, could be done away with. Not because the techniques aren't applicable, but because they are redundant. Today, kata like this are used more for "filler", a way to stretch out the curriculum and make more ranks, than anything else.
As was pointed out, these "basic" kata contain the same techniques that are repeated in the "advanced" kata. Instead of spending one year learning just basic kata, and then two years learning the advanced kata, why not just spend three years on the advanced kata? The most important techniques will still be emphasized by the teacher in practice, you still repeat the transitions over and over again. And I don't think these kata are as difficult as people think they are...give folks a little credit. An adult can learn any kata with enough practice, it's not like a small child who hasn't fully physically developed yet. If there is one or two techniques in a kata that are difficult for someone, they'll get it eventually...the longer they spend practicing it the better they'll become. Meanwhile, the core basics extracted from the kata would be drilled repeatedly. This is not the model of commercial martial arts instruction that most are familiar with, but I feel it would be more effective and efficient for the purposes of actually learning kata techniques.

 

[seasoned]

I think kata like taikyoku and fukyugata, and even pinan, could be done away with. Not because the techniques aren't applicable, but because they are redundant. Today, kata like this are used more for "filler", a way to stretch out the curriculum and make more ranks, than anything else.
As was pointed out, these "basic" kata contain the same techniques that are repeated in the "advanced" kata. Instead of spending one year learning just basic kata, and then two years learning the advanced kata, why not just spend three years on the advanced kata? The most important techniques will still be emphasized by the teacher in practice, you still repeat the transitions over and over again. And I don't think these kata are as difficult as people think they are...give folks a little credit. An adult can learn any kata with enough practice, it's not like a small child who hasn't fully physically developed yet. If there is one or two techniques in a kata that are difficult for someone, they'll get it eventually...the longer they spend practicing it the better they'll become. Meanwhile, the core basics extracted from the kata would be drilled repeatedly. This is not the model of commercial martial arts instruction that most are familiar with, but I feel it would be more effective and efficient for the purposes of actually learning kata techniques.

Yes, early practitioners were more interested in life preservation, as apposed to a designated curriculum. The thought of bringing someone from white belt to black and beyond was obscured. More over, it's intent was to destroy an aggressor. As you state, there is a lot of redundancy pertaining to the many kata of today. It does make for a conducive business atmosphere, but, the merits of mental development, are most needed in this day of the "me" factor. I think kata holds something for everyone, whether for sport or destruction, it all depends on how it is presented. I do feel that the Sensei of today should stick to a set curriculum with the techniques of kata progressing from the most basic to the most advanced, for legal reasons. Teaching the most advanced bunkai to someone that has trained for a short time is irresponsible. The karate of today could be divided into 3 categories, sport, self defense, or killing art. Respectively speaking, where do any of us stand in regard to this?

 

[MJS]

I really don't think there is a such thing as a simple kata.
Have you watched a new student learn a "simple kata"? I am sure that they wont agree that it is simple.

Sure katas teach basics, balance, core power and other techniques you may not even realize you are applying at the time. But you have to remember that a kata is a series of movements put together to simulate a battle. The transitions stances, or silly foot movements as they were called may not work in real life, but find another stance or silly foot movement that will take you from point A to point B that still fits in with the kata. There needs to be valitity to the movement, you can't just randomly toss stances into a kata just for the heck of it, but done in real life like it is done in kata just wont work. Adjust your footing slightly, insted of a full out zenkusu dachi narrow your stance and you will see that the application works. (for example). Think 3 parts application 1 part flair for a lack of a better way of putting it.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

I suppose the word 'simple' was not the best choice. Let me explain. The kata that I mentioned, Short Form 1, from the Parker Kenpo system, is pretty much that...short. It consists of basic blocks, such as up, in, out and downward. It is a defensive kata, due to the fact that while there are directional changes, you are moving back.

So, on the surface, the movements are simple and pretty easy, once you understand the blocks. Now, moving, coordinating that with the blocking, etc., yes, that is the not so simple part, as some people are not coordinated, and it takes them longer, which is fine. If we dig into what the kata teaches, and I listed some of those things, but there is quite a bit more, we will see a 'simple' kata, turn into a complex one.

As we progress thru the Kenpo ranks, it should be obvious that the katas, even on the surface, are much, much more in-depth. Dig into those and there will be twice the amount contained, as far as what the kata really teaches.