Do We Make Too Much of Kata?

[Kung Fu Wang114 145]

The "art" part.....

All forms can be trained in 3 different ways:

- combat (punch out fast and pull back fast),
- performance (punch out fast and freeze punch into the thin air),
- health (punch out slow with exhale and pull back fast with inhale).

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

“Martial art” is an English term and we have adopted that in reference to fighting methods from all over the world. This may or may not be an appropriate way to translate the native terms used to describe these methods. But at the end of the day, that is an English term we are using, and I think people often confuse what it means. I do not believe the “art” in martial arts means artistic and creatively beautiful in the sense of the fine arts and performance art. There is another definition of the English term art, that means skill acquired by experience, study, or observation, and a branch of study. It does not imply aesthetic beauty. I believe that is the proper definition of “art” in the context of martial arts. Once that is understood, the notion that any of this needs to be beautiful, or is meant to be performance art, dissipates. It does not matter if the kata is ugly or strange looking. What matters is if it can be a functional tool in the process of training.

That's also true, but beauty is no longer a prerequisite for art, either. You couldn't call a painting by, say, Georg Baselitz 'beautiful'. In its original sense, 'art' was simply the pinnacle of a craft process like painting, as badhabits points out. Aesthetics, however, is strongly present in eastern athletics. Itosu changed the kata enormously, preserving their function to some extent but also introducing an aesthetic dimension to them that I enjoy. As a side note, I think it's about time that eastern forms such as bonsai, brush drawing and indeed kata were considered in the same breath as traditional Western forms like Oil painting and sculpture.

 

[HighKick]

The "art" part.....I view this the same way as any other activity where someone has reached a very high level of proficiency - that guy over there is so good at carpentry he raises it to an art form. That guy over there is so dang good at fishing he raises it to an art form. You hear people say this kind of thing all the time. That's how it's simplified in my head at least. It's probably a gross oversimplification, but I'm not a very smart guy lol

Well said.

 

[Leviathan]

I can now understand your low opinion of kata. It stems from your not understanding what kata is, although from the posts in this thread you should be getting a better idea - unless your mind is completely closed to the true concept of kata that has been explained here and other threads in detail.

You should be aware that Shotokan, almost from its start, was an institutionalized style that largely developed in the school system where the goals for the art diverged from the combat-oriented Okinawan art. More stress was put on personal development, exercise and competition. Also, most of the grappling techniques were taken out so as not to compete with judo/jiu-jitsu which were already established arts in Japan.

Although the kata still have remnants of these techniques embedded in them, teaching their application (for the most part, there are definitely some exceptions) have not been a priority (and this is not restricted to just Shotokan). Unfortunately, it seems that what you were looking for was not present in the Shotokan schools you attended. This does not mean there aren't other schools/styles of karate that have more of what it seems you're looking for (combat application). But it's great that muy thai fits your interests.

Just don't knock something that due to your limited knowledge and experience you do not completely understand.

Believe me I have had so many explanations from so many different trainers (some of them internationally acknowleged) who know a lot about karate / katas and they are very similar. I have a hard time believing I have missed a point here. But if I had gone on this way for 20 more years I would certainly have brainwashed myself into believing it.

 

[Badhabits]

My view on it is this- if someone who has mastered even one kata to the point they know everything about it, inside and out, have mastered every little subtle movement, can apply what the kata contains to a person trying their hardest to avoid it-can use the contents of that kata to great effect - when a true expert on that kata tells me that kata is outdated, useless, forget kata your time is better spent elsewhere.... Then I'll seriously consider that kata is stupid. So far I've only heard kata is stupid from people who have little understanding of it.
The people who I personally know that have strong negative feelings towards kata actually have something in common. None of them like to have to think too hard about their fighting. They just like to get in there with another person and get physical. They don't want a mental exercise mixed in there

 

[Gerry Seymour2]

Believe me I have had so many explanations from so many different trainers (some of them internationally acknowleged) who know a lot about karate / katas and they are very similar. I have a hard time believing I have missed a point here. But if I had gone on this way for 20 more years I would certainly have brainwashed myself into believing it.

I haven't read all of your posts on this thread, so there's a possiblity I'm misunderstanding your point. If so, please correct me.

Your discussion of kata seems to center around it being about the appearance of it, rather than it having any utility. My primary style (Nihon Goshin Aikido) traditionally only had 2-man kata (similar to what you'd hear some call "one-steps" in other styles). They are used for teaching the basic principles and fundamental techniques. I added a series of "long" kata (very short by most styles' POV - around 10 moves in each), to give students a way to work on movement, balance, and transitions by themselves - while keeping their mental focus on the fundamental techniques.

Can they be done for aesthetic reasons? I suppose so. And sometimes I like to try to do them as cleanly as possible, focusing on the individual movements, rather than the technique. That practice has purpose, as well, though - it requires more precision and focus on body position, which is useful in and of itself.

I don't like to spend a lot of time on forms. When I was teaching, I spent less time on the classical (2-man) forms than most NGA instructors. In fact, the time my students spent on those and the long forms, combined, was probably still significantly less than the time most students of the art spend on forms, as I have a different view of those classical forms than many instructors do.

My discussions with folks from other arts - both here and elsewhere - leads me to believe there are a lot of ways kata can be used, without it having to be the focus of training in a way that is detrimental. I think a part of the issue is how folks perceive and experience that type of training. Some folks simply don't enjoy the repetition of it. I've hears some on here belittle that view, and I disagree. Brains are different, and some brains don't do as well on that type of practice as others do. On the other hand, some brains seem to do extraordinarily well with the moving meditiation that kata can present. For me, as I've matured (both personally and in the martial arts), my ability to learn from forms has improved. Early on, all I seemed to learn was movement patterns. Now, I find them a useful way to explore those movements, to see what happens when small changes are made (both in solo forms and 2-man forms).

Perhaps forms simply aren't a good fit for you. Or perhaps you've never had an instructor who gave you a good way to use them that worked for you.

That said, I also think there are places that have made forms the centerpoint of their art, and I don't think that's particularly useful, except for those folks who just really enjoy doing forms for the sake of doing forms.

 

[Cri70]

Our perception of kata has gone thru many stages over the past hundred years and more. When I started karate in the 60's, kata was a simple thing - using basic blocks, kicks and punches (and a chop or two) to fight off a bunch of attackers coming from all directions, just like a good kung fu movie. And there were a few moves we weren't sure what the hell they were. But we were satisfied to remain blissfully ignorant or put some cool philosophical or dramatic meaning to them. Anyway, it didn't matter too much. Afterall, kata wasn't real fighting. The idea of kata was posture, stance, crisp execution and, above all, looking good.

Then, in the 1990's into the early 2000's, a different interpretation began to be revealed. We had it all wrong! Many of those basic moves were really locks and breaks, and that stepping around to face a new attacker was really throwing the old attacker down. The old style of karate was discovered to be close-in combat with a lot of grabbing and twisting. Who knew!

Now we have some sensei jumping in with both feet into the advanced kata application game saying, "If we take this punch and redirect it over there, grab the arm, then, instead of sliding in as the kata shows, just duck and pivot in a 360, take a couple of extra steps and change the elbow into a circular block, we can see this combo is really a double dislocate and backflip body slam." Yes, we've learned that TMA kata is designed to be somewhat flexible, but really?!

Kata was not meant to be complicated. It really is composed of the basics - the basics as taught in the 1800's - basics capable of dispatching a pirate or bandit with minimum risk and maximum efficiency. This translates into simplicity. Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually the best. I see kata sort of like kihon (basic drills), but volume 2 containing the other basics that all too often we don't drill put into a combat context. Kata is not a repository of arcane techniques, nor is it simply sport, nor an elementary form of practice. It's just karate.

Completely agree.

A kata is a collection of examples to illustrate certain points of positioning, weight shifting, mechanical leverage when moving between positions, and tactics. Basically what the originator of the kata thought it was important in order to come quickly on top, stitched in a sequence. So... gross body movements, where the weight go (or stays), how to use linear and angular momentum, tactile feedback as opposite to visual, etc.

Anything overly complex and that you have to think about makes little sense, as at go time you don't get a chance to think at all.

The kihon thing is a modern thing I believe?

I guess everyone learning a kata would practice little bits of it in isolation to get the feeling of the movement from A to B and kinda imprint the context of usage imagining the situation (at least I've always done it).

But by the time kihon was introduced in Japan, karate had very much been re-imagined as fitness and character-development activity, and kihon was developed to further support these goals. The focus went only to few bits which were appropriate for the kind of competition fights they started to have in mind, with its distances, its point-scoring ideas, pretty much ignoring all the rest.

Hence the modern kihon, and the Taykyoku katas, which are perfect for the re-imagined "karate" of the times.

 

[Old CJ]

I have developed several katas of my own:
1. Front Room to Kitchen. (When not training or riding my bicycle Front Room is where I spend most of my time.)
2. Front Room to Garage. (Where the bicycle is).
3. Front Room to backyard. (I train and do lots of gardening in the back yard).
4. Front Room to Bed Room.

Am I making too much of Kata?

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

I have developed several katas of my own:
1. Front Room to Kitchen. (When not training or riding my bicycle Front Room is where I spend most of my time.)
2. Front Room to Garage. (Where the bicycle is).
3. Front Room to backyard. (I train and do lots of gardening in the back yard).
4. Front Room to Bed Room.

Am I making too much of Kata?

This is a good kata. There is a structure to your day: 1. Do this to accomplish X. 2. Do this to accomplish Y. etc. Each segment has a purpose. Like any good kata, you are able to vary the routine to adjust to changing conditions like not being hungry or raining outside, only to return to the kata the next day. This is my understanding of kata in the broad sense.

 

[Cri70]

I have developed several katas of my own:
1. Front Room to Kitchen. (When not training or riding my bicycle Front Room is where I spend most of my time.)
2. Front Room to Garage. (Where the bicycle is).
3. Front Room to backyard. (I train and do lots of gardening in the back yard).
4. Front Room to Bed Room.

Am I making too much of Kata?

Is your house attacking you?

But I jest. I have myself lots of katas for cooking, making chores, working etc
They don't use the same language as the karate katas toh

 

[Old CJ]

Is your house attacking you?

But I jest. I have myself lots of katas for cooking, making chores, working etc
They don't use the same language as the karate katas toh

Yes, at times it attacks me. After repairs it attacks my wallet.

 

[Cri70]

Yes, at times it attacks me. After repairs it attacks my wallet.

Then u need to practice kata more!

 

[Old CJ]

Then u need to practice kata more!

Ok, will do

 

[Gerry Seymour2]

Yes, at times it attacks me. After repairs it attacks my wallet.

The doorways in mine like to bump me in the shoulder. And don’t get me started about the damned coffee table.

 

[Krisxylove]

Our perception of kata has gone thru many stages over the past hundred years and more. When I started karate in the 60's, kata was a simple thing - using basic blocks, kicks and punches (and a chop or two) to fight off a bunch of attackers coming from all directions, just like a good kung fu movie. And there were a few moves we weren't sure what the hell they were. But we were satisfied to remain blissfully ignorant or put some cool philosophical or dramatic meaning to them. Anyway, it didn't matter too much. Afterall, kata wasn't real fighting. The idea of kata was posture, stance, crisp execution and, above all, looking good.

Then, in the 1990's into the early 2000's, a different interpretation began to be revealed. We had it all wrong! Many of those basic moves were really locks and breaks, and that stepping around to face a new attacker was really throwing the old attacker down. The old style of karate was discovered to be close-in combat with a lot of grabbing and twisting. Who knew!

Now we have some sensei jumping in with both feet into the advanced kata application game saying, "If we take this punch and redirect it over there, grab the arm, then, instead of sliding in as the kata shows, just duck and pivot in a 360, take a couple of extra steps and change the elbow into a circular block, we can see this combo is really a double dislocate and backflip body slam." Yes, we've learned that TMA kata is designed to be somewhat flexible, but really?!

Kata was not meant to be complicated. It really is composed of the basics - the basics as taught in the 1800's - basics capable of dispatching a pirate or bandit with minimum risk and maximum efficiency. This translates into simplicity. Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually the best. I see kata sort of like kihon (basic drills), but volume 2 containing the other basics that all too often we don't drill put into a combat context. Kata is not a repository of arcane techniques, nor is it simply sport, nor an elementary form of practice. It's just karate.

Ive never considered the defensive application from any of my forms. But what I can say is that by approaching my training as a "meditation" I have developed an enormous amount of mind/muscle connection. I know that I can learn new athletic movements much quicker than before my training. Maybe this is an additional purpose of the forms. To sort of upgrade your mind and bodies capability.

 

[isshinryuronin4 4]

Ive never considered the defensive application from any of my forms. But what I can say is that by approaching my training as a "meditation" I have developed an enormous amount of mind/muscle connection. I know that I can learn new athletic movements much quicker than before my training. Maybe this is an additional purpose of the forms. To sort of upgrade your mind and bodies capability.

It's good that you've found value in kata. But the MAIN value are the defensive applications. Please consider how the moves can be applied against a wrist grab, choke, etc. Consider grabbing after a block and how the next moves can capitalize on that, or that after a block and turn, what would happen if you were grabbing the arm as you turn. So many things to explore.

 

[Krisxylove]

It's good that you've found value in kata. But the MAIN value are the defensive applications. Please consider how the moves can be applied against a wrist grab, choke, etc. Consider grabbing after a block and how the next moves can capitalize on that, or that after a block and turn, what would happen if you were grabbing the arm as you turn. So many things to explore.

I'll start thinking about that, thank you. In the very least it will enliven my practice. It's dumb I know but I noticed my Gongfu springs into action well swatting at bees that scare me!

 

[Old CJ]

I'm just glad kata still exists so I can enjoy practicing it. I also see it as a tool to hone my technique. I don't have my Sensei every day but I do have kata that my Sensei taught me to work with.
I'm using kata to make myself better every day. Maybe one day I will have my thoughts about it organized enough to write several paragraphs on the subject but now I am thankful for my Sensei teaching me kata.

 

[E0richt]

To me, form is like a textbook that teach you how to use the grammar and the vocabulary in that book.

For example a grammar can be

- Attack one leg, then attack another leg.

The nice thing about form is you can expand a grammar to map into many different sentences. There are many different ways to attack the leading leg. There are also many different ways to attack the back leg. Your teacher may just show you one combo, you can come up many combos yourself.

Then why not drill simple movements and even have students make their own kata? ( being devil's advocate)

 

[E0richt]

That's what grappling dummies are for.

And heavy bags and BOBs, wooden dummies etc...