Naihanchi Shodan Bunkai Exchange

[Bob Hubbard]

I checked out the video clip mentioned initially... I'll be totally honest..it looks like a wristlock to me, similar to what we call 'backwards throw' in Arnis... Did I miss something? I'm not familiar with the systems in question so its totally possible.

Vids are very welcome to aid the visually impared like myself..an easier pointer to which ones would help follow things, I think.

Thank you!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike


But again let me restate the original purpose of the thread. I am looking to discuss interpretations of the movements of Naihanchi Shodan and in an effort to start somewhere, I began with the beginning of the kata (or to my chagrin, near the beginning of the kata for some). That is the movements to the right in Naihanchi Shodan. This kata takes a step with the left foot across the right and the right foot steps out to the right. The right hand moves out to the right so that the arm is on the same plane as the body and then the left elbow is thrust out towards the right hand.

All the Mpegs on that website are techniques from Naihanchi Shodan

 

[Sensei Mike]

Let me try rephrasing this question.

I had asked several times in this thread, if anyone had an interpretation for the initial moves to the right.

This initial direction includes a left step and a right step.

Please help me understand which of the videos on the page are for that specific set of movements. (Left cross-over step, right step to the right, right hand out to the right, left elbow, all of which are found in Ryu Te Naihanchi Shodan taught by Master Oyata.)

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Please help me understand which of the videos on the page are for that specific set of movements. (Left cross-over step, right step to the right, right hand out to the right, left elbow,................

All the mpegs have one or more components of what you are asking for.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ all of which are found in Ryu Te Naihanchi Shodan taught by Master Oyata.)

Actually it is just plain old Naihanchi Shodan.
Only the interpretation of that kata is from Taika Oyata.

 

[chufeng]

Mike wrote:

"My left downward block to the left, followed by my right "cross over" strike, is a snap of the neck. I use a body pivot to maximize my own power. The hands move together, not separate. This spins the attacker off to your left. He should wind up on his back, and if either the elbow or takedown were powerful enough, he would be at least dazed long enough for you to complete your finishing technique.

My finish is one of two, depending on how far away he falls (typically the taller, the further.)"

That last sentence implies that you actually have applied this technique on more than one person...how far did the student/training partner actually fall? and, how long were they in treatment after you snapped their necks? (you see, I do read this stuff)

My prior post regarding wrist lock, leg bite, point strike still stands.
Leg bite is a Chinese technique (probably called something else in Okinawa and Japan) where you take out the persons base by using Stance work in very close proximity to the opponent...

I'm not going to get into a two page explanation on all of the intricacies of the sequence...for reasons stated earlier.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Sensei Mike]

All the mpegs have one or more components of what you are asking for.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

There are 25 videos, 11 with Oyata. Are you saying that all 25, or just the 11 with Oyata, include components of the movements to the right side? I do hope you can answer this as it perhaps can narrow the area you have given me for my Easter egg hunt.

Again, just for clarification, you are stating that EVERY video (11 or 25) has movements that are part of the initial Naihanchi movement to the right, which includes ALL of the following: a left step, a right step, a right hand out to the right, and a left elbow to the right hand.

(Of course, it can also include, but not be limited to, the opening movement to the front.)

I really do appreciate this clarification.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike


Let me see if I understand this correctly.

There are 25 videos, 11 with Oyata. Are you saying that all 25, or just the 11 with Oyata, include components of the movements to the right side? I do hope you can answer this as it perhaps can narrow the area you have given me for my Easter egg hunt.

Again, just for clarification, you are stating that EVERY video (11 or 25) has movements that are part of the initial Naihanchi movement to the right, which includes ALL of the following: a left step, a right step, a right hand out to the right, and a left elbow to the right hand.

(Of course, it can also include, but not be limited to, the opening movement to the front.)

I really do appreciate this clarification.

There is no "easter egg hunt".

All 25 of the mpegs on that website have one of more components of the techniques you inquired about.
(That would be starting at the begining and moving to the right and so on)
Please bare in mind that the techniques on the video are only very basic interpretations.

 

[Sensei Mike]

That last sentence implies that you actually have applied this technique on more than one person...how far did the student/training partner actually fall? and, how long were they in treatment after you snapped their necks? (you see, I do read this stuff

It seems a good natured rib, but just in case I am too obtuse to understand the nuance, I will answer anyway.

This throw is no different than so many found in small circle Ju Jitsu and Aiki Jitsu schools. You just can't do many throws without seriously injuring the partner by breaking or tearing something. So it has to be done a bit slower, and in the small circle systems, a bit larger, so that you avoid injury.

This is really a simple takedown. As with so many techniques to the neck, the torso really relaxes and the body turns with the throw.

Of course the partner knows it is coming, and can't tense up, or else is risking injury. In actual application, I maintain that if you are mildly successful with the elbow then you will have a mildly relaxed attacker, for perhaps a second or so. If the ridge hand and elbow are in quick enough succession, this will also somewhat overwhelm the nervous system and cause relaxation in the shoulders and torso making it more of a throw than snap.

The key thing is to turn the hands like they were opposed approximately 180 degrees on a small steering wheel (about an 11:25 clock position). The hands move together on the turn. But so does the torso, as it does in the kata (at least as it is done in several systems with relatively immobile hips and more fluid pivoting shoulders and torso). With the head pulled in tight to the body (the stack of the hands) the slight torso pivot to the left adds a lot of force to the technique.

The more the torso and arms move, right to left, the more it is a throw. The tighter everything stays, the more it is a snap. Since my goal is to always throw the opponent I have a pretty big right-left movement. Kind of like turning a steering wheel that is shifting to the left.

 

[Sensei Mike]

There is no "easter egg hunt" All 25 of the mpegs on that website have one of more components of the techniques you inquired about. (That would be starting at the begining and moving to the right and so on) Please bare in mind that the techniques on the video are only very basic interpretations..

First, let's be very, very clear about semantics. I am not sure I agree with your use of the term "and so on" underlined above. I have said repeatedly, and continue to say, that I am only talking about the movements to the right, in the initial direction to the right. I have never talked about the movements to the right "and so on". I have only talked about moves to the right, as part of the two steps and two hand movements to the right at the beginning of the kata.

Are we perfectly clear on this point. We are talking ONLY about the moves to the right, and the applicability of these videos, all 25 of them, to the moves in the initial direction to the right. (Two steps, two hand motions.)

Thanks again for the clarification.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

............We are talking ONLY about the moves to the right, and the applicability of these videos, all 25 of them, to the moves in the initial direction to the right. (Two steps, two hand motions.)

This is a common misconception among many modern and most western and Japanese karateka's understanding about kata and kata bunkai.
The techniques from the kata are not always as they appear in the kata, i.e. first A then B then C and so on and are not independent of each other but are all related and connected.
As my teacher has explained to many different martial arts people from various styles the kata are just like the alphabet. Just as ABCDEF......doesn't spell anything and has no meaning, kata too has no meaning if you think of the moves as merely ABCDEF or as I have stated above first A technique then B technique and so on. To make a practical and viable life protection technique you have to take different pieces of the kata and arrange them just as if you were making a word using the alphabet. So, if you look at the Alphabet and want to make the word CAT you take each letter out of order in the alphabet and combine them to make a word that has meaning, therefore, just as if you take part C of the kata and combine it with part A and part T (cat) you get a technique that has meaning.
So this is why when you say "Two steps, two hand motions" it is like saying "punch".........that's it? What comes next?
One punch by itself is not really a complete technique.

 

[Sensei Mike]

My question still stands, as it appears to me that you have chosen to evade it rather than answer it. You stated earlier that you had two, then six, then 25 videos that apply to the four movements to the right. Let me try pinning you down one more time. Do all 25 videos pertain to the movements to the right, at the beginning. Not at the beginning "and so on." Just at the beginning.

If you won't answer that, how about answering this. Please tell me how the video labeled 646KB applies to this movement. (It is at the bottom corner before the Oyata videos.) For our readers, let me describe this part of my Easter egg hunt. (Let's say that here I looked under the bed and found none.) It begins with the attacker sitting on the ground, the defender squatting behind with a choke and then raising up with his right elbow rising vigorously upward, as he raised his mass into a stance. The right hand of the "rising elbow" winds up near the defenders own ear. The defender then demonstrates the rise again into a forward stance, followed by an outward block/downward block combo found in all the naihanchis, followed by another move into another forward stance.

Help me to understand why this isn't an Easter egg hunt when you ask me to look at 25 videos to find what you originally said was in two, then six, then 25. How about another request? Instead of my looking at all 25 again, how about if you would actually tell me which of the 25 have the leg-crossover movement. One leg steps over the other and then the second leg steps out? Could you do just that? Or will you claim it is in all of them.

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding the situation here. When I asked you to verify your statements, you could not give a straight answer, but merely a discussion of why those four movements shouldn't be considered as sequential, although that is the way they are found in the kata.

I am familiar with the alphabet soup approach to kata taught by Master Oyata. It is a fine approach. But it too is limiting.

It is not the ONLY approach, it is but one approach. You are simply incorrect in your following claim.

Just as ABCDEF......doesn't spell anything and has no meaning, kata too has no meaning if you think of the moves as merely ABCDEF or as I have stated above first A technique then B technique and so on.

I have recently completed a lengthy description of ABCDEFGHI as it applies to Naihanchi shodan. (Or some would argue BCDEFGHIJ, as I left off the beginning.) This combination has very high fidelity to the sequential movements in the kata. It builds methodically, and overall is a devastating counter attack to an attack of a right grab of the right wrist. It starts with difficult combination, (wrist look, sweep) that together can lower vital targets into striking range. Then it follows with two good counters. The technique goes on, with the sequential movements of the kata.

You state:

So this is why when you say "Two steps, two hand motions" it is like saying "punch".........that's it? What comes next? One punch by itself is not really a complete technique. So this is why when you say "Two steps, two hand motions" it is like saying "punch".........that's it? What comes next?
One punch by itself is not really a complete technique. .

When I say two steps and two hand motions, that is exactly what I mean. It is not "like" anything other than that. It is very literal. It is from the kata. It is two steps and two hand motions. I could approach this aspect of your argument in any number of ways, but I have learned pinning you down is not straightforward. You state "what comes next?" If I replied that it was the next movement of the kata, would it make difference? If I replied "I don't care what comes next, the whole point of this thread, up to now, was to share these four movements", would that make a difference?

You are still left with statements that are difficult to support. You have stated that all 25 videos cover the opening four movements. Just think for a moment about this remarkable claim. If we are to count individual hand and foot motions separately, we get to four in the first direction. In the opposite direction, four are similar (the steps and the final two movements, but of course, they are not together and therefore the "combination is different.). To the left are 8 additional hand motions and two sweeps with the feet. And coming back to the right this is repeated. What are the odds that all 25 would apply to such a small percentage of the kata? Do all 25 apply equally to all aspects of the kata or just the movements to the right?

I have provided just what you say can't be done namely, ABCDEFGHI. I provided lot's of pointers on how the motions are faithful to the kata. Here are a few others.

In the first strike, the attacker's neck is pulled into the right ridge hand, as your left hand is returned to chamber to load for the next technique, and still holding on to the attackers wrist. This can be a wrist lock, but it is not critical. The second strike is among the most powerful techniques we can do with our arms, an elbow to the head, with the hand on the outside of the head, restricting it's ability to "bob" to your right. The right hand actually pulls the head into the left elbow strike. With that done, a very effective takedown is found in the direct movements of the kata. The only real difference is that the hands move more together than separate, which in essence says the right hand follows very, very quickly, as we should expect in combat.

I then use the direct step over, and the raised left leg found in Shotokan Tekki to launch a devasting finishing technique to the head of dazed opponent. And, please note, that I have inserted this opponent, potentially, into the path of another opponent.

This may seem like a difficult combination. It certainly is to those that have not practiced Naihanchi Shodan extensively. For those that have a few thousand repetitions under their belt, it works well. To those that have the 10,000 reps that Kentsu Yabu claims you need to make a kata your own (plus plenty of partner work and bag/makiwara to make the techniques strong), this is easy to do effectively, without thinking.

I have a couple of hundred such movements, over 150 alone from the five kata I practice. I only use the sequential movements of kata and have a takedown in EVERY one.

In one sense, I find your lack of understanding of the incredible effectiveness of the sequential movements in kata rather surprising. Your posts to this and other threads indicate a real knowledge of the art and its history. On the other hand, it helps to explain your inability to appreciate this forum as an effective mechanism to communicate technique.

I can see how you would have great difficulty describing some of the movements in those videos. How do you describe GABD to someone who has only practiced ABC and BCD and DEF and EFG. There is no common frame of reference. You bet the Internet is a lousy medium if you were trying to describe Oyata's movements found on those videos.

I am taking a completely different approach. It is one that seems to be beyond your experience. I am using practitioners' well-developed knowledge of ABC and BCD and DEF, and simply putting in an attacker, the attack and the posture, and then describing how ABC and BCD and DEF translate into effective technique. I share with them a common frame of reference that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. It as called Naihanchi shodan. This has never been about teaching new movements. This is all about having people understand well-known movements from a different perspective.

That's it.

In a sense, it is you that have missed this incredible richness of meaning of kata. There is no necessity to cobble together this move and that move to get a great combination. The original masters that created and refined these kata did it all for us. And to ignore this is to miss one fundamental value of the kata. In practicing a given one tens of thousands of times, you are programming your body to execute those movements, without thought. No need to mix and match.

This is not to criticize mixing and matching. That is a great way to utilize kata. But despite what you have learned, it is absolutely not the only way. Kata works, as it is. Period.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Mike, You seem very Knowledgeable about kata's, but it seems odd that you claim to have several hundred from the five kata's you pratice. But you don't have any for the first movement of Naihanchi? I have heard how Ryushikan explain how kata's are put together. How it was explain to me was, each movement was like a pearl on a necklace, strung together they make a necklace. Movements are interchageable. Most of the movements that you see can or are shown to be done forward, backwards, upside reverse.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

My question still stands, as it appears to me that you have chosen to evade it rather than answer it.

No, actually I have answered it at least twice.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ Do all 25 videos pertain to the movements to the right, at the beginning. Not at the beginning "and so on." Just at the beginning.

For the last time YES

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Please tell me how the video labeled 646KB applies to this movement. (It is at the bottom corner before the Oyata videos.) For our readers, let me describe this part of my Easter egg hunt. (Let's say that here I looked under the bed and found none.) It begins with the attacker sitting on the ground, the defender squatting behind with a choke and then raising up with his right elbow rising vigorously upward, as he raised his mass into a stance. The right hand of the "rising elbow" winds up near the defenders own ear. The defender then demonstrates the rise again into a forward stance, followed by an outward block/downward block combo found in all the naihanchis, followed by another move into another forward stance.

That video is an teaching explanation technique, not a demonstration of technique, of some of the bunkai for movements going to the right.
He is demonstrating where the attacker ends up and what is done to him.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Help me to understand why this isn't an Easter egg hunt when you ask me to look at 25 videos to find what you originally said was in two, then six, then 25.

Actually I had forgotten what was on the other videos but after watching them again I discovered my mistake.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

How about another request? Instead of my looking at all 25 again, how about if you would actually tell me which of the 25 have the leg-crossover movement. One leg steps over the other and then the second leg steps out? Could you do just that? Or will you claim it is in all of them.

Always the fast food approach "gimme it now".
Look at the videos and look at their feet.........some of the techniques have the first part of the footwork in it some have the hand techniques.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding the situation here. When I asked you to verify your statements, you could not give a straight answer, but merely a discussion of why those four movements shouldn't be considered as sequential, although that is the way they are found in the kata. I am familiar with the alphabet soup approach to kata taught by Master Oyata. It is a fine approach. But it too is limiting.

Obviously you did not read my post well enough about the sequential order in kata.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

In one sense, I find your lack of understanding of the incredible effectiveness of the sequential movements in kata rather surprising.

Really? Funny thing..........not only can I do all of the techniques on those videos I teach them.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

On the other hand, it helps to explain your inability to appreciate this forum as an effective mechanism to communicate technique. .

To be honest I think I have been than generous with you.
I you look at those videos and study them carefully you have about 10 years worth of work.
(To be honest, you can't actually see many of the finer important points in the technique so I doubt they will make for a very good study aide)

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I can see how you would have great difficulty describing some of the movements in those videos. How do you describe GABD to someone who has only practiced ABC and BCD and DEF and EFG. There is no common frame of reference. You bet the Internet is a lousy medium if you were trying to describe Oyata's movements found on those videos.

I have been and it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I am taking a completely different approach. It is one that seems to be beyond your experience. I am using practitioners' well-developed knowledge of ABC and BCD and DEF, and simply putting in an attacker, the attack and the posture, and then describing how ABC and BCD and DEF translate into effective technique. I share with them a common frame of reference that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. It as called Naihanchi shodan. This has never been about teaching new movements. This is all about having people understand well-known movements from a different perspective.

I was "experienced" that method over 25 years ago.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

In a sense, it is you that have missed this incredible richness of meaning of kata.

Oh darn..........

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ The original masters that created and refined these kata did it all for us.

I was always under the impression they made kata rather confusing so any old passer by would know exactly what they were doing, and only taught trusted people or relatives. I can't remember reading where they made kata for the masses.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ And to ignore this is to miss one fundamental value of the kata. In practicing a given one tens of thousands of times, you are programming your body to execute those movements, without thought.

Only if you know what the movements are.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have heard how Ryushikan explain how kata's are put together. How it was explain to me was, each movement was like a pearl on a necklace, strung together they make a necklace. Movements are interchageable. Most of the movements that you see can or are shown to be done forward, backwards, upside reverse.
Bob :asian:

BINGO!

 

[Sensei Mike]

Kempojujutsu

it seems odd that you claim to have several hundred from the five kata's you pratice. But you don't have any for the first movement of Naihanchi?

I am finding it difficult to understand where you naysayers are coming from. I am trying to figure out how you could have read this thread, and still made the above statement. I have spent two long posts, and parts of short ones, providing a detailed analysis regarding the opening of this kata (lock, sweep, two strikes, takedown, stomp). Let me reiterate. This begins with the FIRST move in the kata.

One would expect, that in a good thread, that before commenting, one might actually read the content first. Of course the poster is free to ignore anything said previously, and state whatever he/she likes. But there is an expectation that when someone states something previously that it will not be conveniently ignored.

Here is the fourth post in this thread.

Some systems go from a formal stance with the feet together at the heels, and the hands by the sides, and bring the hands together, arms bent, in front, palms facing the body, and then rotate them down.

Some systems don't move that way. They start with the hands at the sides and move directly into the opening posture of the crossed hands without raising the hands at all. Some systems start in the opening position of hands crossed in front.

And the sixth post

Regarding moving my hands from my sides (or in Matsubayashi, on the fronts of my thighs) to the center in front of my groin, the Shito Ryu system I practice moves them less than 12 inches towards each other in a linear path. (I am 5' 8", and the length of movement would vary by height.)

Again, this is found in Kobayashi, Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Matsubayashi, Shobayash).

The students that founded the first three of these systems, all studied for many years with Itosu. The last two studied with Kyan who learned them from Matsumura. (One of the first three, Funakoshi, also studied with Matsumura)

So we have these four major contributors to Shorin Ryu (Chibana, Funakoshi, Mabuni and Kyan), that we know learned the kata from either Itosu and Matsumura and what do we find. Their systems today do not practice the raised hands, lowered hands before the movements to the right.

Now where did Oyata learn Naihanchi. From Nakamura perhaps? Where did Nakamura learn them from. He was perhaps 25 when Itosu died, and although he studied with him, there is a reasonable doubt that he learned Naihanchi shodan from him. In 1915, the Pinans were the introductory kata and back then, students, would have been expected to spend a long time with each kata. (I do recognize that Nakamura then studied with Hanashiro and others who who were Itosu's senior students.)

I train, periodically in Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, Shotokan and Shito Ryu. Now perhaps you should tell me, why should I practice a movement not found the kata of this broad cross section of Shorin Ryu (or perhaps more accurately, Shuri te). The rest of the Naihanchi shodan across these systems is virtually identical. There is lots to share outside from this initial movement found only in SOME Shorin Ryu systems.

I started this thread to share bunkai. I picked Naihanchi shodan because, except for maybe for the Pinans, it is the most common. It is without exception the most uniform, even including the presence of absence of a hands raising at the beginning. But my primary goal is a better mastery because Yabu Kentsu has stated that "Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi."

I overlooked one small difference, some systems have the hands raise and go down. But it is irrelevant. I want to look at the commonalities, which are essentially, EVERYTHING BUT the raising and lowering of hands in the initial movement. And I find it regretable that this one small difference has dominated this thread. It continues with your post and this reply.

Let me review. For the five systems mentioned above that lack the initial raising and lowering of the hands, I have a complete and thorough explanation for the FIRST movement in Naihanchi. It is bringing the hands together. (They start at the sides, or in Matsubayashi, on the thighs.) I explained the left hand/over right hand represents a pin of an opponent's right hand on your wrist, and is fundamental to setup a wrist lock.

My interpretation continues from there.

I continue to be surprised that you said I did not have any explanation for the first movement of Naihanchi. I have made that clear. It is a pin of the wrist, and it continues from there, pearl to pearl, down the necklace, in sequence, overwhelming the attacker. No detour from the sequential movements in kata.

It's amazing what actually reading a thread can do to the level of the content.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike


Now where did Oyata learn Naihanchi. From Nakamura perhaps?

That's right.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Where did Nakamura learn them from.

He studied from:
Nakamura Kokichi
Nakamura Teiichi
Nakamura Shinkichi
Motobu Choki
Itosu Anko
Yabu Kentsu
Hanshiro Chomo
Kuniyoshi Shinkichi

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

He was perhaps 25 when Itosu died, and although he studied with him, there is a reasonable doubt that he learned Naihanchi shodan from him.

That's correct he did not. He learned Naihanchi from Motobu Choki and Itosu Anko.
Motobu Choki studied from:
Itosu Anko
Tokumine Peichin
Matsumura Kosaku
Matsumora Sokon

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I train, periodically in Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, Shotokan and Shito Ryu. Now perhaps you should tell me, why should I practice a movement not found the kata of this broad cross section of Shorin Ryu (or perhaps more accurately, Shuri te).

Oddly enough I have one of Fusei Kise's 3 dans in my dojo, his version and mine are pretty close.
Maybe you should stick with one dojo instead of hopping around between them.
You know the story about chasing rabbits......but then again you do keep mentioning the Easter Bunny or something of that nature.
If you don't want to do that hand motion then don't. I could care less either way.
But a better question is why don't the above mentioned do it since there are other styles that do it??
Have they just left it out? Could be.........ya never know.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

The rest of the Naihanchi shodan across these systems is virtually identical. There is lots to share outside from this initial movement found only in SOME Shorin Ryu systems.

Shotokan does it, and it is actually rather common in Okinawa and Japan.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I overlooked one small difference, some systems have the hands raise and go down. But it is irrelevant.

Actually it is hardly small and it is a very good part of the kata that has at least 5 different applications that I know, I am sure it has more.
Why not try to understand as many versions of Naihanchi as you can instead of knit picking about only 2 movements.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I want to look at the commonalities, which are essentially, EVERYTHING BUT the raising and lowering of hands in the initial movement.

There are several foot movements found in some version and not in others, there are also some that have different hand motions in the middle........in fact I can think of very few styles that are similar to the point that they are interchangeable.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I continue to be surprised that you said I did not have any explanation for the first movement of Naihanchi. I have made that clear. It is a pin of the wrist, and it continues from there, pearl to pearl, down the necklace, in sequence, overwhelming the attacker. No detour from the sequential movements in kata.

A pin of the wrist? That's it?
What about the hands down position that follows? Are they connected at all? If so in what way?

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

It's amazing what actually reading a thread can do to the level of the content.

Ya know it's these kind of comments that don't get you very far......you make them and then expect people to spend the time and energy to write out long explanations about kata for you.
I really don't get that at all.
Quite frankly I find your attitude rather disrespectful not only to myself but to others that have posted information for you.
This makes me think you are not truly interested in learning.
And on that note I will leave you to fend for yourself.

 

[DKI Girl]

Okay EVERYONE!!! Let's take a step back here and just discuss Bunkai!!

If you are not going to post a kata interpretation....don't post!!

This is getting ridiculous!!!


The cross over step can be used in a couple of different ways. It can be a step out to the side like the kata does to bring your opponent down and over from a wrist lock. It could be you stepping to the inside of your opponents foot to attack points or to ground them by stepping on their foot too.

You can also interpret the cross over as a turn. It is a very effective technique with the wrist lock.


Mike, I received my Shodan in Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu, so I can "see" the kata that you are describing quite well.

dki girl

 

[Kempojujutsu]

1. Lapel grab-reach up grab hair or clothing with R.Hand. Left Hand strikes face and turns the chin. The cross over step is pivot of 90 degrees or more.
2. Lapel grab- trap hand to chest- cross step with is a pivot as you pivot you apply wrist lock
3. Say from a fighting stance, attacker grabs cross handed, grab his hand break the grip apply kote gaeshi type of lock.
Bob:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

OK folks I will state this once because I dont think it needs stateing again. No one system has all the answeres and no one poster knows it all.
Each time sometime is taught it is a learning experence and no matter how we feel about who we studied with and what art we studied someone may have a different interpatation. That is why this thread was started to disscuss the differences not to say that any one interpatation was the only one.
Please get on with the disscussion of the moves.
When you disscuss the varrious moves we can all learn when you stagnate it becomes a nothing thread.
Shadow

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



That's correct he did not. He learned Naihanchi from Motobu Choki and Itosu Anko.
Motobu Choki studied from:
Itosu Anko
Tokumine Peichin
Matsumura Kosaku
Matsumora Sokon

My mistake. Mr. Nakamura taught the Hanashiro Chomo version of Naihanchi Shodan. Although he studied the Itosu and Motobu versions. We presently practice the Hanashiro version with the hands starting in the "book reading" or "prayer" position.