Kata or sparring.

[jarrod]

i have to pose this question then...so, do those adept in say, Muay Thai--which have no kata--NOT "move" like martial artists in your mind?

you mention that kata teaches you how to step, distribute weight properly, not over commit, etc. i've trained under a couple Muay Thai instructors who seem to have all that down.

additionally, the "kata" that most people are discussing in this thread pertain to certain striking styles like karate, no?

so what do we do with a style like judo, which also has kata?

i mean the kata in judo usually involve two people executing moves...similar to the drills we have in bjj. they aren't attacking or defending against imaginary opponents. they are actually applying techniques on their partners. it kinda goes against the idea of what kata is in the minds of some on here.

i think your response to Stevebjj's question--while well thought out--kinda missed the mark because from what i've seen in judo, kata appears to look like drilling.

you know, i'm a shodan in judo & i've never even done a kata. maybe i should ask my coach about that.

jf

 

[seasoned]

i have to pose this question then...so, do those adept in say, Muay Thai--which have no kata--NOT "move" like martial artists in your mind?

you mention that kata teaches you how to step, distribute weight properly, not over commit, etc. i've trained under a couple Muay Thai instructors who seem to have all that down.

additionally, the "kata" that most people are discussing in this thread pertain to certain striking styles like karate, no?

so what do we do with a style like judo, which also has kata?

i mean the kata in judo usually involve two people executing moves...similar to the drills we have in bjj. they aren't attacking or defending against imaginary opponents. they are actually applying techniques on their partners. it kinda goes against the idea of what kata is in the minds of some on here.

i think your response to Stevebjj's question--while well thought out--kinda missed the mark because from what i've seen in judo, kata appears to look like drilling.

Thank you for your response to this thread. I believe you are comparing a sport oriented art or arts, against a self defense based one. In a sport based art, weight divisions are used, and for the most part, you are limited to certain rules, where winning is the goal, because of the competition atmosphere. In a self defense based art, the only rules are, survival of the fittest, and the outcome was not winning, but killing. These self defense based arts, were born out of a people, (China), where they were of slight build, and had to compensate. On the battle field, size was irrelevant, what was needed was a means of defeating someone much bigger and much stronger then yourself. What was needed, was a way to borrow, or utilize, from your enemy, his strength, and size, and then, use it in your favor, while at the same time applying certain techniques that would hasten their demise. This borrowing of his strength and size required body mechanics not found in everyday life. Generally speaking, physical movements for sports are based on those of daily life, such as walking, running, throwing, jumping, lifting, etc. This in turn created a competition mind set based on the fastest and the strongest winning. In the traditional art of Okinawan GoJu, with it’s Chinese influence, the training is different, based on what it’s original concept was, “to defeat, any and all. Let me use an example in hopes of making myself clear. Did you ever see someone that was very accomplished in certain sports, maybe weight lifting, that didn’t appear to be very muscular, but could out lift much bigger people. Or high jumpers, that possessed great spring in their legs. It could be said that they have great genes, but in reality, they posses great bone structure, along with very good tendon strength, along with great body mechanics. In traditional karate, the weirdest of stances, that are found in kata, are abandon by some, as useless, but are exactly what accomplish all of the above. The stances, in traditional kata, are training methods to build these body mechanics. Throw the stances out, and you have sport, work the old traditional kata along with their weird useless fighting stances, and you begin to understand the unique building process devised in those old antiquated days, when it was life and limb.

 

[jarrod]

Thank you for your response to this thread. I believe you are comparing a sport oriented art or arts, against a self defense based one. In a sport based art, weight divisions are used, and for the most part, you are limited to certain rules, where winning is the goal, because of the competition atmosphere. In a self defense based art, the only rules are, survival of the fittest, and the outcome was not winning, but killing. These self defense based arts, were born out of a people, (China), where they were of slight build, and had to compensate. On the battle field, size was irrelevant, what was needed was a means of defeating someone much bigger and much stronger then yourself. What was needed, was a way to borrow, or utilize, from your enemy, his strength, and size, and then, use it in your favor, while at the same time applying certain techniques that would hasten their demise. This borrowing of his strength and size required body mechanics not found in everyday life. Generally speaking, physical movements for sports are based on those of daily life, such as walking, running, throwing, jumping, lifting, etc. This in turn created a competition mind set based on the fastest and the strongest winning. In the traditional art of Okinawan GoJu, with it’s Chinese influence, the training is different, based on what it’s original concept was, “to defeat, any and all. Let me use an example in hopes of making myself clear. Did you ever see someone that was very accomplished in certain sports, maybe weight lifting, that didn’t appear to be very muscular, but could out lift much bigger people. Or high jumpers, that possessed great spring in their legs. It could be said that they have great genes, but in reality, they posses great bone structure, along with very good tendon strength, along with great body mechanics. In traditional karate, the weirdest of stances, that are found in kata, are abandon by some, as useless, but are exactly what accomplish all of the above. The stances, in traditional kata, are training methods to build these body mechanics. Throw the stances out, and you have sport, work the old traditional kata along with their weird useless fighting stances, and you begin to understand the unique building process devised in those old antiquated days, when it was life and limb.

weeelllllll now here is where i have to respectfully disagree with you sir. the fact that sports utilize weight classes doesn't mean that they require more strength. when you have two athletes trained in the proper technique, size & strength then become deciding factors. incidentally, judo didn't have weight classes in it's earliest days, & didn't adopt them until it appeared on the national scene. size is never irrelevent, whether on the battlefield or in the ring.

i really believe that far too much is made out of the differences between sport & self-defense. all martial arts have their roots in self-defense. i think strikeandsubmit point stands; so-called sport martial artists most definately move like martial artists.

besides, there are non-sport arts which don't use kata either. japanese jujitsu doesn't, nor does aikido i believe. there is at least one style of bagua that i've researched that doesn't use any forms. military sambo, mcmap, krav maga...i'd say most of the world's battlefield arts don't use forms training. in fact most of them use sport as a means of training.

jf

 

[jarrod]

"appeared on the national scene" should read "appeared on the international scene"

 

[seasoned]

weeelllllll now here is where i have to respectfully disagree with you sir. the fact that sports utilize weight classes doesn't mean that they require more strength. when you have two athletes trained in the proper technique, size & strength then become deciding factors. incidentally, judo didn't have weight classes in it's earliest days, & didn't adopt them until it appeared on the national scene. size is never irrelevent, whether on the battlefield or in the ring.

i really believe that far too much is made out of the differences between sport & self-defense. all martial arts have their roots in self-defense. i think strikeandsubmit point stands; so-called sport martial artists most definately move like martial artists.

besides, there are non-sport arts which don't use kata either. japanese jujitsu doesn't, nor does aikido i believe. there is at least one style of bagua that i've researched that doesn't use any forms. military sambo, mcmap, krav maga...i'd say most of the world's battlefield arts don't use forms training. in fact most of them use sport as a means of training.

jf

What came first the chicken or the egg. Did self defense turn into sport, or did sport turn into self defense? What Judo was, and is, is two different things. Yes, most arts have drills which superficially practice moves or techniques, and in a way could duplicate kata. Kata builds more then just moves and techniques and there in lies the difference in an old traditional art, versus a sport oriented one. There is nothing mystical about this whole thing. When kata is practice with the original intent in mind, the mind set is much different then just doing moves. When I spar, my mind set is a little different then kata because there can be no follow through. Also most people don’t like kata because they basically don’t understand it. With all due respect maybe you should explain what your interpretation of kata is, and maybe you will help in making my point. J

 

[seasoned]

weeelllllll now here is where i have to respectfully disagree with you sir. the fact that sports utilize weight classes doesn't mean that they require more strength. when you have two athletes trained in the proper technique, size & strength then become deciding factors. incidentally, judo didn't have weight classes in it's earliest days, & didn't adopt them until it appeared on the national scene. size is never irrelevent, whether on the battlefield or in the ring.
jf

Only when void of proper technique, of which traditional kata teaches.

I will concede this much in that traditional kata were born out of turbulent times much like the old west. The mind set of then was conducive for those times. Which have no place in our modern times. No laws then, many laws now.

 

[jarrod]

What came first the chicken or the egg. Did self defense turn into sport, or did sport turn into self defense?

i think that viewing self defense & sport as opposites is a flawed premise. every warrior class in every society throughout history has participated in some form of controlled contest. pankration, jousting, fencing, single stick, wrestling, jujitsu, lei tai, combat sambo...all practiced by military personel & self-defense enthusiasts. skill is the ability to apply technique. sport contests provide the opportunity to test skill. now i'm not saying that sport fighting is the sum total of self-defense, but it is an important component.

With all due respect maybe you should explain what your interpretation of kata is, and maybe you will help in making my point. J

admittedly, my understanding of kata is not deep. i have read & been told that kata were designed in part to disguise the movements since martial arts were prohibited at various times in japan. now i imagine that you can trace the lineage of many japanese kata to older chinese forms, which i have also been told were devised to hide the techniques from those outside of the family being taught. so i conceed that katas contain a myriad of techniques & teach proper movement. but i don't think they are the only way to do so.

Only when void of proper technique, of which traditional kata teaches.

maybe i didn't explain my position well. you have two fighters of equal technical ability, equal speed, equal determination...all else being equal, strength will of course decide the issue. if a 150lbs man performs a strike with perfect technique, & a 250lbs man performs the same strike with equally perfect technique, the larger man's strike will be harder. i don't think there is any denying that.

the importance of strength & conditioning is also supported by military history. it is not a substitute for proper technique, but it is a great asset.

jf

 

[seasoned]

i think that viewing self defense & sport as opposites is a flawed premise. every warrior class in every society throughout history has participated in some form of controlled contest. pankration, jousting, fencing, single stick, wrestling, jujitsu, lei tai, combat sambo...all practiced by military personel & self-defense enthusiasts. skill is the ability to apply technique. sport contests provide the opportunity to test skill. now i'm not saying that sport fighting is the sum total of self-defense, but it is an important component.



admittedly, my understanding of kata is not deep. i have read & been told that kata were designed in part to disguise the movements since martial arts were prohibited at various times in japan. now i imagine that you can trace the lineage of many japanese kata to older chinese forms, which i have also been told were devised to hide the techniques from those outside of the family being taught. so i conceed that katas contain a myriad of techniques & teach proper movement. but i don't think they are the only way to do so.



maybe i didn't explain my position well. you have two fighters of equal technical ability, equal speed, equal determination...all else being equal, strength will of course decide the issue. if a 150lbs man performs a strike with perfect technique, & a 250lbs man performs the same strike with equally perfect technique, the larger man's strike will be harder. i don't think there is any denying that.

the importance of strength & conditioning is also supported by military history. it is not a substitute for proper technique, but it is a great asset.

jf

If the 250lb man is uprooted, then his punch is that of a 100lb man. If the 150lb man uses proper kata principles of power manifestation, which is where we are not connecting, then he can punch like a 250lb person.
I believe that this same disconnect is the one you may be having with the W/C people. There have been many good post in this forum on the benefits of traditional kata. I suggest that rather then take a stand with me, punch kata into the search engine and have at it. :asian:

 

[strikesubmit]

you know, i'm a shodan in judo & i've never even done a kata. maybe i should ask my coach about that.

jf

hey jarrod, yes please do. a buddy of mine is currently taking up judo, and he maintains that his dojo seems to place more of an emphasis on "kata" for beginners. and by the way he described it, it seemed more like drilling.

perhaps it's more just a matter of terminology between different instructors? i dunno. i don't have any first-hand experience with judo.

but, i was curious about this, so i looked up some judo "kata" on Youtube, and it did kinda look like drilling.

 

[jarrod]

If the 250lb man is uprooted, then his punch is that of a 100lb man. If the 150lb man uses proper kata principles of power manifestation, which is where we are not connecting, then he can punch like a 250lb person.
I believe that this same disconnect is the one you may be having with the W/C people. There have been many good post in this forum on the benefits of traditional kata. I suggest that rather then take a stand with me, punch kata into the search engine and have at it. :asian:

well if the 250lbs man is uprooted, he isn't using proper technique is he?

i've never denied the benefits of kata training, or WC for that matter. my whole point of contention is with the belief that there is a hard & fast line drawn between sport training & self-defense. the two are not mutually exclusive, & in fact are beneficial to each other.

for instance, there are kata divisions in every karate tournament. is it self-defense training when you do it in the dojo, then just for sport when you do it in front of judges? i don't think so.

hey jarrod, yes please do. a buddy of mine is currently taking up judo, and he maintains that his dojo seems to place more of an emphasis on "kata" for beginners. and by the way he described it, it seemed more like drilling.

perhaps it's more just a matter of terminology between different instructors? i dunno. i don't have any first-hand experience with judo.

but, i was curious about this, so i looked up some judo "kata" on Youtube, and it did kinda look like drilling.

i forgot at class this afternoon, but i will ask.

my guess is that judo kata are seldom practiced anymore because there are hardly kata divisions in judo tournaments anymore. just like nobody practices judo leglocks, or gun disarms, or atemi-waza, even though it is all part of the system. imo, this is an example of over-emphasizing the sport aspect, though i suspect a good judo athlete could still handle himself in the most common situations.

jf