Just a good video I found on youtube.

[geezer]

Well thanks for the insult followed by a concept which i've never heard of. Mind explaining "Kuit" for me, as I've been training WT for 10 years and have no clue what your talking about. lol

Jeff, the kuen kuit or "fist-sayings" are traditional rhyming couplets that express the essence of WC teachings. There are many shared kuit between the branches, and others that are specific to particular lineages. In the WT branch many instructors don't go around quoting a lot of esoteric "kuit" since they can be "just so many words". And just like techniques, they can be misunderstood and mis-applied. Still they are part of our tradition, and they can be useful reminders of how to integate our core concepts. Leung Ting just called them "mottos" in his books. For example, check out the "mottos" section in his little Siu Nim Tau book.

Now I can almost hear you saying, "Oh yeah, so that's what you're talking about! Of course I know that stuff".

I think most of us WT guys didn't worry too much about all the Cantonese terms for techniques, history and so forth. LT put a lot more emphasis on getting us to do it right than on trying to teach us Cantonese. Still get a Chinese guy to coach you on how to say that key motto: Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. Not only does it encapsulate the essence of WC/WT/VT, but it sounds soooo cool!

 

[geezer]

That was very interesting to watch.

Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art...

These are the exactly kinds of honest questions that need to be asked if training is to be meaningful. Personally, I really liked K-Man's response. After reading that, I went back and looked at a videoclip of Geoff Thompson explaining "the fence". In that context, the skill set that chi-sau trains seems very useful to me.

Watch toward the end of this clip how the fence is used to control distance and position of an aggressor. IMO this is what chi-sau would be like in the real world apart from training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I hadn't paid much attention to that type of training until about six or seven years ago when I was researching Tegumi. From learning from WC practitioners on MT I started introducing it into my karate classes. Now all our kumite begins from a hands touching scenario.

WRT the pub situation see if you think this could work. Someone is arcing up and started to crowd your space. Your hands are up in a non threatening fence as you try to cool the situation. The aggressor comes closer with his hands up ready to push or hit. You gently place your hands on his as you say you want no trouble. He either calms down or launches at you but from that position you can control his arms. If he pulls back to punch, you sense the tension in his arm before he actually can physically move and you can strike before he even prepares to strike. And, any of the Chi Sau moves or deflections occur in a fraction of a second as you take control before you hit. One of my guys does boxing as a cross train. He tried it on a boxer who had fought professionally and the guy initially didn't know what to do. :asian:

Wait a minute…that sound EXACTLY like the Jun Fan I trained.... :hmm: you'd think it came from Wing Chun

 

[hunt1]

Not an insult just a statement of fact from my pov. I tend to be direct don't really have the time to play around. Kuit are the wing chun instruction manual. You have probably heard them or know them even if you don't identify them as such.

The first thing everyone is taught is basic elbow position. Everyone has been taught 1 to 1.5 fist lengths from the chest. If not raise your hand. Look at the chi sau. Totally violates this most basic concept, brings elbows back to chest and even to his side. Only because he is playing a game with a student does he get away with this. You do not ever bring the opponents hand back to your chest. Do this with a non compliant person and you should get a good smack every time.

He pulls with his arms. you do not pull with your arms. Another basic thing. Even Leung Ting, I use him since this form tends to be a LT love fest at times, makes a big point of teaching that you pull will the body not the arms.

So first 3 violations of basic wing chun; in proper elbow position, brings opponents arm into his own body, Pulls with arms not with his body. There are many more things that could be pointed out but this is enough for now.

 

[K-man]

These are the exactly kinds of honest questions that need to be asked if training is to be meaningful. Personally, I really liked K-Man's response. After reading that, I went back and looked at a videoclip of Geoff Thompson explaining "the fence". In that context, the skill set that chi-sau trains seems very useful to me.

Watch toward the end of this clip how the fence is used to control distance and position of an aggressor. IMO this is what chi-sau would be like in the real world apart from training.

One of the things I like about MT, apart from the obvious friendships that develop regardless that most of us have never met, is the little things that add to our own skill set, even if it is just a reference that we can take away and explore. I have incorporated a number of things into my training as a result of MT discussions.

Interesting to me in this clip was reference to Chuck Norris and Richard Norton. Richard is a friend and I have attended several of his seminars. He teaches a version of 'the fence' and he talks about 'outside 90'. What that means is that if the angle of the arm at the elbow is greater than 90 degrees, you virtually have the aikido 'unbendable arm' which will keep your attacker out for long enough to allow you to hit him. If your arm is less than 90 degrees, 'inside 90', it will collapse as he comes in.

Thanks for reminding me of Geoff's tape. I have it but haven't watched it for about 10 years. I must have another look. :asian:

 

[geezer]

Not an insult just a statement of fact from my pov. I tend to be direct don't really have the time to play around. Kuit are the wing chun instruction manual. You have probably heard them or know them even if you don't identify them as such.

"Instruction manual"? Yeah, I guess so, in an archaic and often enigmatic way, But like just like the modern manuals and DVDs, each branch has their own slightly different collection of kuit. And like modern manuals, they won't do you much good without a good instructor tho help you along.

...He pulls with his arms. you do not pull with your arms. Another basic thing. Even Leung Ting, I use him since this form tends to be a LT love fest at times, makes a big point of teaching that you pull will the body not the arms.

Well, there are several people posting on here who were formerly in various branches of LT's system. That creates common ground and respect for a lot of what he taught. But I'm not really feeling the love. His current students don't post here, and won't even talk to some of us outcasts! Regardless of all that, you are absolutely right about pulling with the body and not drawing force into yourself with your arms.

So first 3 violations of basic wing chun; in proper elbow position, brings opponents arm into his own body, Pulls with arms not with his body. There are many more things that could be pointed out but this is enough for now.

You've got a good eye, Hunt. Now I've got to go back and check this out more carefully. The first time I didn't pay that close attention --but just kind of checked out the flow and feel of their training ...which I liked. Honestly, I really don't expect that much from unknown people on youtube. Now if you are talking one of the great masters of the art, that's something else entirely.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

"Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung" - the phrase that I'm sure every WC practitioner is (or should be) familiar with is a Kuen Kuit, or saying. There's quite a few that give good insights on the system and describe what it is about. I am curious which ones hunt1 is referring to though when he claims that they many of them are being violated.

THANK YOU! Lol... We call those the "3 motto's of chi-sau", but Kuen Kuit is fine. What is "kuit"s translation? I've never heard the phrase (or term) kuen kuit... sure kuen(fist), but sometimes all the different terms or different ways people say them get a little overwhelming. Thanks again for the insight!

All the best,



Jeff

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Jeff, the kuen kuit or "fist-sayings" are traditional rhyming couplets that express the essence of WC teachings. There are many shared kuit between the branches, and others that are specific to particular lineages. In the WT branch many instructors don't go around quoting a lot of esoteric "kuit" since they can be "just so many words". And just like techniques, they can be misunderstood and mis-applied. Still they are part of our tradition, and they can be useful reminders of how to integate our core concepts. Leung Ting just called them "mottos" in his books. For example, check out the "mottos" section in his little Siu Nim Tau book.

Now I can almost hear you saying, "Oh yeah, so that's what you're talking about! Of course I know that stuff".

I think most of us WT guys didn't worry too much about all the Cantonese terms for techniques, history and so forth. LT put a lot more emphasis on getting us to do it right than on trying to teach us Cantonese. Still get a Chinese guy to coach you on how to say that key motto: Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. Not only does it encapsulate the essence of WC/WT/VT, but it sounds soooo cool!

Geezer,

Ya, so little panda story time, I was under Sifu (haha) William Parker, and while his fighting ability is pretty good, his understanding of the chinese terminology and his ability to explain theories and concepts is truly lacking. I picked up all of Si-gungs (LT's) books and with my Dai-si-hing's and my favorite to-dai's help we delved into WT theory, motto's, concepts and terminology. I'm starting to get rusty, but I've never heard the term "kuen kuit", again thank you guys for shedding some light for me.

The reason why all of us left the IWTA-NAS is because the three "Big/bad" instructors were trash. Ya Sifu Parker has some chi-sau/lat-sau chops; but the Mikes didn't have that much skill. Sifu Lau Gar Sun is really outstanding (of course he actually speaks chinese), but My old sifu, and the countless others who will remain nameless really never got into the theory. They were more technique collecters from my point of view. I've never met Sifu Elmond Leung, but one of his student's/training partners Sifu Haw Kuo is outstanding, and his understanding and practical applicaiton of theory is outstanding. There is so many good ones out there now, all products of the LT org. The fella's under "City Wing Tsun" happen to be my favorite. They are extremely well versed in theory as well as the HK style Wing Tsun. Of course, Sifu Richter speaks Cantonese so he can read and understand like I would never be able to. Many of the other guys and split with Sifu Lau are wonderful people who are very good martial artists and just good folks.

It looks like I need to get into more theory and concepts lol.

Thanks again Geezer!!! Your the man!

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Not an insult just a statement of fact from my pov. I tend to be direct don't really have the time to play around. Kuit are the wing chun instruction manual. You have probably heard them or know them even if you don't identify them as such.

The first thing everyone is taught is basic elbow position. Everyone has been taught 1 to 1.5 fist lengths from the chest. If not raise your hand. Look at the chi sau. Totally violates this most basic concept, brings elbows back to chest and even to his side. Only because he is playing a game with a student does he get away with this. You do not ever bring the opponents hand back to your chest. Do this with a non compliant person and you should get a good smack every time.

He pulls with his arms. you do not pull with your arms. Another basic thing. Even Leung Ting, I use him since this form tends to be a LT love fest at times, makes a big point of teaching that you pull will the body not the arms.

So first 3 violations of basic wing chun; in proper elbow position, brings opponents arm into his own body, Pulls with arms not with his body. There are many more things that could be pointed out but this is enough for now.

Ok so I think I get it Hunt1; Your speaking of the "immovable elbow theory", "center line theory" etc. the motto's, concepts; basically all the wing tsun theorom.

Yes I undertand that they don't do it exactly like LT does it. And trust me, there is no love lost between me and Si-Gung or his association. Just the fact remains, he's had more students worldwide than any other instructor; and alot of US are still with the association, or recently seperated. So it's not so much a LT love-fest, but we all belong to the same immediate family.

I didn't feel the need to critisize every single movement the guy did in the video, because honestly, I don't know all the answers. I've had experiences with Ip Chun, Moy Yat, and Chan Yiu Min (Chan Wah Shun's son) lineages, and some of them did stuff that was DURASTICALLY different; Yet it worked. I thought it was silly, untill I picked my sorry *** off the ground wondering what the hell just happened . Just because they don't do stuff like we do, doesn't mean it isn't effective or right. When you get this mentality that something is "RIGHT/WRONG", YOU are wrong. The concepts and theories can be changed; but only after due process. Remember, not all branches fully extend their punches (Chan Yiu Min lineage). They also don't use the YGKYM (Yee gee kim yeung ma) how we do it. Matter of fact, the CYM lineage turn's on the heels of their feet (which is a BIG no-no in LT system), yet it works... REALLY damn well .

My personal advice to you is to stop worrying so much about breaking tennants and worry about what works and doesn't work.

But thanks for the terminology lesson and your point of view; It was informative

All the best,


Jeff

 

[hunt1]

Sorry have to disagree. If all we go by is" it works" then By your logic all the NFL scouts at the combine are just wasting their time. All Olympic trainers should just hang it.

First to think that it worked on you and there fore it will work on everyone or is valid is egotistical and foolish. Someone from CYM put you on your *** has absolutly no barring on how his wing chun would work against anyone else.
To use Golf . Lee Trevino was one of the top pro golfers of his day. Yet he had the single worst fault for a gold swing,a loop. Follow your logic and proper mechanics be damned it worked for Lee so it s ok ,shouldn't be corrected and in fact should be taught to others. Tiger should put a loop in his swing and still be a great golfer.

All you hear about at NFL combine is technique and mechanics. Why? because a superior athlete can make many things work even if they are mechanically unsound. However at a top level where all are good athletes it is proper technique and mechanics that make the difference. This is true across all physical activities. Tim Tebow has horrible mechanics and will never be a pro started unless he fixes them yet he was a great college QB. When skilled meets skilled mechanics will make the difference.

Now can you add or change wing chun, sure but then you are no longer doing wing chun and our wing chun works very well. Until you are actually doing wing chun as it was designed how can you determine if it works?

 

[HammockRider]

Now can you add or change wing chun, sure but then you are no longer doing wing chun and our wing chun works very well. Until you are actually doing wing chun as it was designed how can you determine if it works?

But don't different schools have some different ideas on how wing chun was designed? If so how can you tell which ones are correct? One way might be if it works.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Sorry have to disagree. If all we go by is" it works" then By your logic all the NFL scouts at the combine are just wasting their time. All Olympic trainers should just hang it.

First to think that it worked on you and there fore it will work on everyone or is valid is egotistical and foolish. Someone from CYM put you on your *** has absolutly no barring on how his wing chun would work against anyone else.
To use Golf . Lee Trevino was one of the top pro golfers of his day. Yet he had the single worst fault for a gold swing,a loop. Follow your logic and proper mechanics be damned it worked for Lee so it s ok ,shouldn't be corrected and in fact should be taught to others. Tiger should put a loop in his swing and still be a great golfer.

All you hear about at NFL combine is technique and mechanics. Why? because a superior athlete can make many things work even if they are mechanically unsound. However at a top level where all are good athletes it is proper technique and mechanics that make the difference. This is true across all physical activities. Tim Tebow has horrible mechanics and will never be a pro started unless he fixes them yet he was a great college QB. When skilled meets skilled mechanics will make the difference.

Now can you add or change wing chun, sure but then you are no longer doing wing chun and our wing chun works very well. Until you are actually doing wing chun as it was designed how can you determine if it works?

I was going to draft a big long reply, but honestly I don't think your worth the words it would take, as most of my common sense would bounce off your nazi like views and your clear idea that you are never wrong.

Suffice it to say, football and golf have no reference when it comes to self defense. Saying that you have to follow kuen kuit to the letter is how we get outdated, and if your going to be a stubborn, rude, obnoxious child and start flaming me for my observations and praise of other styles, please stop posting in my threads, or make your own so you can flame me without drawing away from the topic at hand: These two guys in a video who are doing a rather good job of chi-sau, whether or not they are "perfect" by my standards, I just figured it was worth sharing with everyone on here. If you don't like it; go somewhere else.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

But don't different schools have some different ideas on how wing chun was designed? If so how can you tell which ones are correct? One way might be if it works.

All the different branches have their own ways of doing their art. Even though my WT is different than anyone elses (even in my own branch) because it is uniquely mine because of my body type and the way I believe it should be done.

This hunt1 fella is just trying to argue.

 

[geezer]

This hunt1 fella is just trying to argue.

Arguing online is pointless. That's all they seem to do on some other forums. And there is no practical way to resolve these questions anyway. Unlike football, golf and other major competitive sports, WC has no major competitive avenue for mass testing and statistically determining which method works best for most people.

When I disagree, I prefer to have people demonstrate. Then you can see for yourself. But just beating someone won't convince them. A lot of guys can beat me even though they have bad habits (like Hunt's Lee Trevino example). What's much more convincing is when somebody can show me something that helps me beat somebody else! That's what a good coach can do. Unfortunately, that's beyond the scope of a forum.

Meanwhile, we need to just chill, and accept the truth that everybody else is an arrogant bastard and we know we're absolutely right. Works for me! :bangahead:

 

[hunt1]

But don't different schools have some different ideas on how wing chun was designed? If so how can you tell which ones are correct? One way might be if it works.

Excellent question! Thats where the kuen Kuit come in. My best wing chun friend is Phil Romero. He is Hawkins senior student. We have different wing chun backgrounds and yet when we get together our performance and understanding of wing chun is very similar. We even joke about the same wing chun. The same happens with WSL or HKM trained sifu's. When I crossed hands with Pein Sun sifu's and YKS sifus we shared similar core's even though there may have been different outer shells. There is a core understanding that can be found across wing chun families. now not all have this understanding but the fact that so many do even coming from completely different teachers is evidence of a core set of principals and mechanics and these have been saved and passed down through the Kuit and the forms.

Wing chun denegrates when these understandings are not passed down or understood.

They provide the foundation ,walls and roof of the wing chun house. How you landscape,or design the rooms or furnish the house is up to you. that is why The same sifu's I have trained with and crossed hands with do things differently. each family has there own interior but we all should share the same foundation.

As for works how do you judge? If it works is subjective. I am sure when you started doing chi sau you found that worked on A didn't work at all on B. That happens because you are relying on physical abilities and are able to pull something off against A but B reacts better and therefor we can't make it work against them. As you get better and are more relaxed and use less tension you find that you can now make it work against A and B. You are now starting to perform the technique as intended.
The sooner you give up the physical and rely on the wing chun mechanics the sooner things fall into place. There is always someone stronger and faster. The whole point of the wing chun system is to get passed this and have a set of mechanics and a way of using the body to get the power of the lower body coordinated with every movement of the upper body.

 

[hunt1]

Suffice it to say, football and golf have no reference when it comes to self defense.

LOL, the fact that you could say this shows how little you understand about wing chun or physical activity in general. Nothing I have done is flaming rude or obnoxious. I clearly said the flow was nice just pointed out that the skill was lacking. People praising low level skills is one of the reasons wing chun has become a laughing stock . A nice chi sau game is just that and should not be held up to the public as an example of skill. Perhaps my standards are just to high.
I can not help the fact that your skill level and understanding is low. Only you can open your mind and search and rectify that situation. If you are content that is fine with me. Just don't whine when someone disagree's with you. Posting on a public forum and then crying" he's being mean to me" is the only childish thing that has happened.

 

[geezer]

Perhaps my standards are just to high. ...I can not help the fact that your skill level and understanding is low. Only you can open your mind and search and rectify that situation. If you are content that is fine with me. Just don't whine when someone disagree's with you. Posting on a public forum and then crying" he's being mean to me" is the only childish thing that has happened.

Hey Hunt, do you have to be so harsh? How about trying a little de-escalation or, if you prefer, a little verbal chi-sau before laying on the verbal chain punches! You have some very interesting points to contribute. But when you slam another forum member like that, you'll just get more resistance. And next thing you know, we'll sound just like those other forums. No, we're not all sifus and self-proclaimed experts here, and not everybody is even a 'chunner, but we try to make everybody feel at home. Even when they say something we think is kinda dumb.


Now regarding your sports analogies-- I think you had a good point. Anybody who has competed and coached other athletic disciplines understands that. But there is a huge difference in that most other sports don't claim to be based on an arcane body of knowledge passed down with cultish secrecy for generations. Even really rare and difficult to master skills like, say pitching a knuckleball, get tested out in the open against the same batters everybody else has to pitch against. So in spite of the knuckleball mystique, we have the stats to know if it's working. So it's not what R.A. Dickey says in an interview, it's how he does on the mound that decides his career.

With Wing Chun it's very different. We seldom if ever see the techniques tested publicly, and never in sufficient quantity to have any kind of stats divorced from the personalities involved. It all comes back to individual experience and "testimonials" or "war stories" about certain sifus and their exploits. Another thing that's very different about WC (and TCMA in general) is the attitude that it descends from some perfect ancestral form or "authentic" version with the only correct principles and, by extension, that some groups preserve these concepts while others dilute and corrupt them.

This is exactly the opposite attitude from that of the sporting world where coaches and athletes are always looking for new ways to improve and go beyond what the previous generation accomplished. In sports, records are constantly broken. In WC people argue about who still does it the "original" and "authentic" way. Pretty hard to reconcile those two frames of mind. Any thoughts?

 

[Vajramusti]

So this feller is pretty darn good in my opinion. He is sticking to the centerline like a beast, he is always going forward and he is actually doing chi-sau instead of beating up his student lol.

I just figured this was worth posting! Comment if you like, but most of all enjoy the show


All the best,

Jeff

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am being civil but honest-that is pretty sloppy wing chun in the video.

 

[hunt1]

Hey Hunt, do you have to be so harsh? How about trying a little de-escalation or, if you prefer, a little verbal chi-sau before laying on the verbal chain punches! You have some very interesting points to contribute. But when you slam another forum member like that, you'll just get more resistance. And next thing you know, we'll sound just like those other forums. No, we're not all sifus and self-proclaimed experts here, and not everybody is even a 'chunner, but we try to make everybody feel at home. Even when they say something we think is kinda dumb.


Now regarding your sports analogies-- I think you had a good point. Anybody who has competed and coached other athletic disciplines understands that. But there is a huge difference in that most other sports don't claim to be based on an arcane body of knowledge passed down with cultish secrecy for generations. Even really rare and difficult to master skills like, say pitching a knuckleball, get tested out in the open against the same batters everybody else has to pitch against. So in spite of the knuckleball mystique, we have the stats to know if it's working. So it's not what R.A. Dickey says in an interview, it's how he does on the mound that decides his career.

With Wing Chun it's very different. We seldom if ever see the techniques tested publicly, and never in sufficient quantity to have any kind of stats divorced from the personalities involved. It all comes back to individual experience and "testimonials" or "war stories" about certain sifus and their exploits. Another thing that's very different about WC (and TCMA in general) is the attitude that it descends from some perfect ancestral form or "authentic" version with the only correct principles and, by extension, that some groups preserve these concepts while others dilute and corrupt them.

This is exactly the opposite attitude from that of the sporting world where coaches and athletes are always looking for new ways to improve and go beyond what the previous generation accomplished. In sports, records are constantly broken. In WC people argue about who still does it the "original" and "authentic" way. Pretty hard to reconcile those two frames of mind. Any thoughts?

Geezer you are right. One reason I don't post often is that I have a difficult time expressing myself in a not so harsh manner.
and you a right about wing chin not being tested. That was the point of my post. Since it is not often tested we at least should look for example where at least the very basic's of wing chun are being followed. It's not secret or special knowledge its just at the most basic level elbow position the first thing taught in your first class wasn't even being followed or used. Not to mention anything else. Yet the vid was being praised as a good example of wing chun skill. As someone that has been involved with wing chun for 30 years now something I have a passion for I had to point out that it was not high level skill from my pov. You can be relaxed and still maintain wing chun structure and position.

As I said its not about authentic etc its just about common sense. All human beings are physically designed the same way. There are optimum body mechanics that cross all field's and are shared by all fields of athletics. Unless the position is that to do wing chun you have to be deformed in some way then your wing chun must share these mechanics. The only thing different between the proper way to swing a gold club and strike the ball and the wing chun punch is the angles used and the goal. The power must come up from the ground .Is transferred by the waist, the arms are like whips and the grip cannot be tense but relaxed so the power can come through the arms . Gripping to tightly is just like tensing the wrist and fist. etc. Proper technique for football linemen especially Offensive line is just like wing chun. That's why several pro teams have even had wing chun teachers in to help their linemen.

 

[mook jong man]

On closer inspection when you go back and look at the video closely , Hunt has some very valid points.
Their angles do collapse quite a lot and they do pull with their arms without pivoting the body , and as Joy said that could be classified as sloppy Wing Chun

But as an example of relaxation and not using excessive brute strength I reckon they are pretty good.
All they would have to do is work on maintaining their optimum angle in their arms , and they would be good to go in my opinion.