Just a good video I found on youtube.

[jeff_hasbrouck]

So this feller is pretty darn good in my opinion. He is sticking to the centerline like a beast, he is always going forward and he is actually doing chi-sau instead of beating up his student lol.

I just figured this was worth posting! Comment if you like, but most of all enjoy the show


All the best,

Jeff

 

[K-man]

Thank you. I did enjoy it. :asian:

 

[geezer]

Jeff, good find. Thanks for posting this. I especially like the fluid whole body dynamic rather than just trying to score shots, or that jerky start-stop-start-stop approach to chi-sau you often see.

 

[Argus]

I don't know about their philosophy or meditation, but their chisau looks really good. I like how they are close enough that they can attack, and they're not just playing with the hands. Also, you can see "lat sau jik chung" happening very well; their hands are always chasing center, and fill the gap immediately when it appears. It looks a lot like what I've seen of the way the Wong Shun Leung guys practice, which I like a lot.

I'm curious what kind of distance different lineages practice at. Ip Ching is big on lop-sau and pivoting, so in my lineage we tend to roll a bit further out most of the time - something I don't really like, to be honest.

 

[mook jong man]

Good stuff , those dudes are super relaxed.
No brute strength used at all , just let the angles do all the work.
We should all be striving to be like that.

 

[Danny T]

Very nice. Very relaxed and the usage of the whole body as a unit is very good as well as creating angles and controlling the lines. The only thing I see a bit more than I like is the actual 'pulling'. It appears to be a grabbing of the arms rather than simple directing through the attachment, breath control, and sinking. However, overall is the best I've seen on any video. Great find!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Very, very nice. I'm not a Wing Chun guy, but I see plenty of stuff I could learn from these guys. Excellent use of angles. I see lots of WC demos where I doubt the practitioners could pull off their moves on someone who wasn't playing the same game as they were. In this case I can see the general applicability of their skills.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very nice thank you for posting that

 

[Sukerkin]

That was very interesting to watch.

Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.

What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .

 

[K-man]

I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.

I hadn't paid much attention to that type of training until about six or seven years ago when I was researching Tegumi. From learning from WC practitioners on MT I started introducing it into my karate classes. Now all our kumite begins from a hands touching scenario.

WRT the pub situation see if you think this could work. Someone is arcing up and started to crowd your space. Your hands are up in a non threatening fence as you try to cool the situation. The aggressor comes closer with his hands up ready to push or hit. You gently place your hands on his as you say you want no trouble. He either calms down or launches at you but from that position you can control his arms. If he pulls back to punch, you sense the tension in his arm before he actually can physically move and you can strike before he even prepares to strike. And, any of the Chi Sau moves or deflections occur in a fraction of a second as you take control before you hit. One of my guys does boxing as a cross train. He tried it on a boxer who had fought professionally and the guy initially didn't know what to do. :asian:

 

[yak sao]

That was very interesting to watch.

Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.

What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .

Fair question. If you look at chi sau and see it done simply for the sake of chi sau, then it may seem pointless from the outside looking in.
The goal of the WC fighter is to bridge the gap between him and his opponent, forming a bridge with his arms ( or legs) If no resistance is met, then we would continuously strike until the threat is neutralized.
That's the ideal situation, a skilled fighter is going to present obstacles between your fists and his face.
Chi sau allows the WC fighter to navigate through his opponent's defenses by sense of touch, and strike his openings, and/or feel the intentions of the opponent as he tries to strike us.
Like sparring, chi sau can be practiced at various levels of intensity. What is being shown here is a less intense example.

BTW, great chi sau. Thanks for posting this.

 

[mook jong man]

That was very interesting to watch.

Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.

What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .

What you are seeing is both people fighting for the centerline and searching for gaps in the opponents defence , or trying to make gaps in the opponents defence via trapping.

When the individuals are close to the same skill level , each attack can be countered by the other and so on and so on.
A bit like two soccer teams that are both good and can't score a goal against each other.

However , when you come up against somebody without a clue in defending their centerline and have no sensitivity , then the gaps are already there and doesn't take much difficulty to get through.
At that point it is hammer time and you just keep hitting them until they go down.

 

[Argus]

I think a good explanation, which might shed some light on what chisau is all about, is that we are always chasing center. It may look like we're just playing with the hands, but we are always attacking the opponent's center, even when we're deflecting and defending our own. Someone who does not know how to defend his center will get hit often if he lets the WC practitioner get within "chisau range." It's only when he does know how to defend his center that you get the kind of fancy flow of chisau that you see in the video.

Every art is specialized, and operates best in the situation which it's suited to. I think more often than not, the ineffectiveness of a practitioner of a particular style, or even a large percentage of said practitioners, results from them misusing their art, and trying to just "do whatever they want with it," if you will. WC is meant for close-quarters combat; that's what it's good at, and that's what we're training when we do chisau. But most people are more acquainted with a boxing / kick boxing scenario, where both parties are actively trying to stay out of contact, and jumping in and out of range. If you view WC, or chisau with the intent of fighting like that, it certainly isn't effective.

 

[hunt1]

Wing Chun comes with instructions , the Kuen Kuit. The flow is nice but the actual wing chun skill is average. Many Kuit are clearly violated

 

[K-man]

Wing Chun comes with instructions , the Kuen Kuit. The flow is nice but the actual wing chun skill is average. Many Kuit are clearly violated

I am not WC, so I have limited understanding of Kuen Kuit, but I would be interested if you could elaborate on what rules you consider violated and why. :asian:

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I don't know about their philosophy or meditation, but their chisau looks really good. I like how they are close enough that they can attack, and they're not just playing with the hands. Also, you can see "lat sau jik chung" happening very well; their hands are always chasing center, and fill the gap immediately when it appears. It looks a lot like what I've seen of the way the Wong Shun Leung guys practice, which I like a lot.

I'm curious what kind of distance different lineages practice at. Ip Ching is big on lop-sau and pivoting, so in my lineage we tend to roll a bit further out most of the time - something I don't really like, to be honest.

Honestly I'm not big on the Ip brothers WC. But they make it work for them. In the Leung Ting version, we think that they lift their elbows too high, which invites a lot of unwanted attention to your elbow, which usually results in a unfriendly arm manipulation lol.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do is stop doing chi-sau as much and really incorporate more lat-sau. That way you aren't stuck in the mid/close range. In lat-sau you should be going through all five ranges.

Chi-sau has a time and a place, but it isn't the end all be all.

And you are correct sir, they are making that center line look like a war-zone!

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

That was very interesting to watch.

Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.

What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .

Sukerkin,

I think the part you would be missing for the "practical application in the "pub"", would be our Lat-sau programs. Lat-sau is "free-handed-fighting". Chi-sau is just to develop your reactions and anti-synaptic reflexes... or "tactile responses". Many WT/WC/VC/VT folks utilize chi-sau (rolling arms/sticky arms) almost to a fault. They forget this is just a training module. The actual "bones to the face" material is in the Lat-sau. But a keen observation on that sir.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Wing Chun comes with instructions , the Kuen Kuit. The flow is nice but the actual wing chun skill is average. Many Kuit are clearly violated

Well thanks for the insult followed by a concept which i've never heard of. Mind explaining "Kuit" for me, as I've been training WT for 10 years and have no clue what your talking about. lol

 

[Argus]

Well thanks for the insult followed by a concept which i've never heard of. Mind explaining "Kuit" for me, as I've been training WT for 10 years and have no clue what your talking about. lol

"Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung" - the phrase that I'm sure every WC practitioner is (or should be) familiar with is a Kuen Kuit, or saying. There's quite a few that give good insights on the system and describe what it is about. I am curious which ones hunt1 is referring to though when he claims that they many of them are being violated.

 

[Danny T]

"Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung" - the phrase that I'm sure every WC practitioner is (or should be) familiar with is a Kuen Kuit, or saying.

"Receive what comes; Stay with what goes; Follow through as it retreats"