Judo vs. Wrestling against heavier, stronger strikers?

[WarriorMonk7]

Hello lads,

I know a lot of you practice BJJ, but what style do you focus on to get a much bigger opponent to the ground - say, a heavy striker.

Do you prefer wrestling or judo techniques for heavier, stronger opponents who want to remain on their feet?

Marcelo Garcia --->

Some article I found:
JCS: American Wrestling vs. Jujitsu: Leonard

Thoughts?

 

[Chris Parker]

It doesn't matter. Whatever you do, train it so you can work it in the majority of situations. This whole "which style is better for…" is limited, off-base, fear-centric (fear of missing out, fear of being outclassed, fear of not having the one magic answer), and simply a waste of time, energy, and focus.

Pick a class that you can attend, go there, and train. End of story.

If you have nowhere available, accept that, and move on or change it, and move on. End of story.

 

[MAfreak]

i doesn't really get it too. except of the gi-techniques its pretty much the same.
and also judo has techniques working without gi and also has double leg takedowns like some people believe is just in wrestling. and despite what the guy of video two says, judo is also bent over, there are wrestling styles where going for legs is forbidden and for example suplex is ura nage in judo.and what garcia does there is like a variation of judo's yoko guruma. i'd prefer this every time since its not much effort for oneself and not much possibilities to counter for the opponent.

 

[Hanzou]

Frankly, any Bjj school worth its salt should be teaching you how to take down a skilled striker without the need to take wrestling or Judo on the side.

 

[lklawson]

Frankly, any Bjj school worth its salt should be teaching you how to take down a skilled striker without the need to take wrestling or Judo on the side.

I've been given to understand that there is a significant, and possibly growing, number of BJJ schools who focus quite narrowly on BJJ competition, just as there are a significant number of Judo clubs, and indeed Wrestling programs, which focus narrowly on competition.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

I've been given to understand that there is a significant, and possibly growing, number of BJJ schools who focus quite narrowly on BJJ competition, just as there are a significant number of Judo clubs, and indeed Wrestling programs, which focus narrowly on competition.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

True, which is causing the current rift between self defense Bjj and sport Bjj. Still, "traditional" Bjj was well adept at taking skilled fighters to the ground.

 

[drop bear]

You don't really want to be going through the clinch with a striker that you are afraid of.

The change level attacks that you see in wrestling puts your head where the punches are not. Which is why you see that double leg used so often.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You don't really want to be going through the clinch with a striker that you are afraid of.

The change level attacks that you see in wrestling puts your head where the punches are not. Which is why you see that double leg used so often.

The best way to deal with a striker is not "how to avoid his punches" but "how to disable his punches".

If you can wrap a striker's arms, he can't punch you. If you drop down, use double leg, and fail, your opponent can still punch you.

 

[Ironbear24]

Frankly, any Bjj school worth its salt should be teaching you how to take down a skilled striker without the need to take wrestling or Judo on the side.

Not if they only focus on sport bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Not if they only focus on sport bjj.

Depends on the school. If its a sport Bjj gym with a heavy basis in MMA like Renzo Gracie's academy for example, you'll learn it there as well.

 

[Ironbear24]

Depends on the school. If its a sport Bjj gym with a heavy basis in MMA like Renzo Gracie's academy for example, you'll learn it there as well.

Exactly, it depends on the school, some of them are never on their feet unless they are walking in and out of the building.

 

[Hanzou]

Exactly, it depends on the school, some of them are never on their feet unless they are walking in and out of the building.

Well that isn't the way you're supposed to teach Bjj imo. The way its supposed to go is that you start at your knees as a beginner in order to focus on ground grappling and to reduce injury. As you get more advanced (i.e. after your second or third stripe as a WHITE BELT) you should start sparring from your feet and including takedowns and throws. Throughout all of that you're supposed to be learning takedowns and throws from the start.

I learned takedowns and throws from the very beginning, but again I first learned Bjj at a Relson Gracie academy which is very old-school and heavily based on self defense applications. The idea that you have to learn an entire different MA to take someone down is nonsensical to me.

 

[Ironbear24]

Well that isn't the way you're supposed to teach Bjj imo. The way its supposed to go is that you start at your knees as a beginner in order to focus on ground grappling and to reduce injury. As you get more advanced (i.e. after your second or third stripe as a WHITE BELT) you should start sparring from your feet and including takedowns and throws. Throughout all of that you're supposed to be learning takedowns and throws from the start.

I learned takedowns and throws from the very beginning, but again I first learned Bjj at a Relson Gracie academy which is very old-school and heavily based on self defense applications. The idea that you have to learn an entire different MA to take someone down is nonsensical to me.

What I don't understand is why some places are like this. The whole we train for competition only , or we train for self defense only. Why not do both? Every place I was willing to invest my time into did both. The first dojo I ever stayed at for a long time had more emphasis on sport, but that didn't mean we did nothing for self defense technique either.

I think every place should have an approuch where they do both.

 

[Hanzou]

What I don't understand is why some places are like this. The whole we train for competition only , or we train for self defense only. Why not do both? Every place I was willing to invest my time into did both. The first dojo I ever stayed at for a long time had more emphasis on sport, but that didn't mean we did nothing for self defense technique either.

I think every place should have an approuch where they do both.

Because self defense Bjj is complex, and competition Bjj is complex. Both are so complex that you can base entire schools around one or the other and never run out of material to teach. Teaching both effectively is a pretty tall order, but some schools try because competition is where the money is. Even in self defense-based schools you'll find competition classes, and in sport-based schools you would hopefully find self defense classes.

If your goal is to become the next Ryan Hall or Gary Tonnen, you're really not going to care about learning how to stop someone from punching you in the guard. You'll want to focus on what the latest guard is, and how to defend it. On the flip side, if your goal is to protect yourself in case you get taken down on the street, you're going to have a completely different focus and not really concern yourself with learning overly complex guards and counters.

With that said, there's plenty of variables. There's old school guys like Roger Gracie who completely wreck the competition scene with the basics, and there's competition Bjj guys who would destroy the average person in a street fight. In the end, it all depends on what you want to do with Bjj.

 

[Ironbear24]

Well I hope so. It's not that difficult to best an average person in a legit fight as they know little to nothing, but I think I understand where you are coming from. Grappling arts are very complicated and feel to me like a game of logic while more striking arts such as boxing and karate often feel more like a test of endurance and reflex and strength.

There is still lots of technical stuff but there seems to be less involved. Just my opinion but maybe that's just because I have more experience doing striking.

 

[Hanzou]

Well I hope so. It's not that difficult to best an average person in a legit fight as they know little to nothing, but I think I understand where you are coming from. Grappling arts are very complicated and feel to me like a game of logic while more striking arts such as boxing and karate often feel more like a test of endurance and reflex and strength.

There is still lots of technical stuff but there seems to be less involved. Just my opinion but maybe that's just because I have more experience doing striking.

If you need any evidence for any of this, just look at the original UFC fights. That's textbook old school Bjj from Helio's branch of the art. Royce didn't have much problem taking people down.

 

[Steve]

Why am I trying to get this huge guy to the ground again?

 

[Ironbear24]

I think you missed my point. My point is that it might be difficult to teach both sport bjj and self defense bjj together is because the two don't overlap well due to all the different nuances and this both happen to complicated.

From my experience sport striking and self defense striking overlap easier.

 

[Ironbear24]

Why am I trying to get this huge guy to the ground again?

Idk maybe he is cute? Some dudes like that stuff.

 

[drop bear]

The best way to deal with a striker is not "how to avoid his punches" but "how to disable his punches".

If you can wrap a striker's arms, he can't punch you. If you drop down, use double leg, and fail, your opponent can still punch you.

Yeah. But the time spent disabling a good puncher is when you can get knocked out because you are moving your head right into his pinching zone.