Jr. Black Belt Test

[MJS]

I came across this clip elsewhere and wanted to post here for discussion. I will say that when I saw it, I was shaking my head at what I was watching. And then people wonder why others talk so much about McDojos and bash the art the way that they do.

[yt]C84mKlxBYx0[/yt]

 

[KempoGuy06]

all i know to do is shake my head

B

 

[terryl965]

was this a joke or for real.

 

[MJS]

was this a joke or for real.

I believe this is real.

 

[KempoGuy06]

this is a sad sad day

B

 

[SL4Drew]

Actually the boy was better than some adults I've seen test for red stripes...seriously. He could have had more intensity. But add that and he'd shame many adults--unfortunately.

In a commercial environment you have to cater to kids. And you have to reward them with a 'black belt' at the end of their curriculum otherwise they wouldn't come. I think that it is important to structure you program so that 1) the pre-teen understands that he won't be able to take on an adult with a serious intent to harm or capture; 2) that the kids' black belt be treated differently; and 3) the program be age appropriate. For example, wearing a black belt with a white stripe; permitting them to only wear the white uniform; prohibit them from wearing it after a certain age; and so forth. Karate-Do (Shotokan) began more or less as a kids program.

So I think you can hold kids to high but age appropriate standards. And that includes acknowledging their hard work with a 'black belt.' Doc had a killer kid's program for a while, from which David Oda came. I wish when I was a kid I had been in a program like Doc's. The kids' program in the video could probably be better, but it doesn't appear to be as terrible as some I've seen. I think it stacks up favorably to most TKD and Kenpo schools.

I'd also add I have yet to meet someone who got a black belt as a kid an stopping training that took that rank all that serious.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Actually the boy was better than some adults I've seen test for red stripes...seriously. He could have had more intensity. But add that and he'd shame many adults--unfortunately.

In a commercial environment you have to cater to kids. And you have to reward them with a 'black belt' at the end of their curriculum otherwise they wouldn't come. I think that it is important to structure you program so that 1) the pre-teen understands that he won't be able to take on an adult with a serious intent to harm or capture; 2) that the kids' black belt be treated differently; and 3) the program be age appropriate. For example, wearing a black belt with a white stripe; permitting them to only wear the white uniform; prohibit them from wearing it after a certain age; and so forth. Karate-Do (Shotokan) began more or less as a kids program.

So I think you can hold kids to high but age appropriate standards. And that includes acknowledging their hard work with a 'black belt.' Doc had a killer kid's program for a while, from which David Oda came. I wish when I was a kid I had been in a program like Doc's. The kids' program in the video could probably be better, but it doesn't appear to be as terrible as some I've seen. I think it stacks up favorably to most TKD and Kenpo schools.

I'd also add I have yet to meet someone who got a black belt as a kid an stopping training that took that rank all that serious.

i dont not agree, in no way should you have to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult.

sorry my .02

B

 

[SL4Drew]

i dont not agree, in no way should you have to give a kid a black belt. Tell them up front, as I would do, that they will not receive until the age of 18 (which I feel is the right age) or unless they demonstrate the maturity level to handle the responsibilities of the rank. Once they attain that rank they need to also understand that in the eyes of the instructor and the people at the dojo they are an adult and from then on will be treated like an adult.

sorry my .02

B

Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.

I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I think this is horrible personally.
The other clips from this same school for tests up to and including 4th Black are there as well, and none get any better then this.
The school is under Rick Fowler from what I have been told, and several people in other places were completely surprised by the lack of quality considering where it comes from, but everyone has agreed that it is a complete lack of Quality.

I think these clips are a perfect example of someone letting their need for an income overcome the ability to demand excellence.

I have to put this under poor business practices on the school owner, who obviously has no shame in deluding their students into believing they are getting something valuable, and effective.

I also have to blame the parents who obviously have chosen to remain ignorant on the subject of martial arts, and quality movement in general.

I imagine by looking at these clips that money being spent on lessons is buying stuff like confidence, social skills, fun, etc., which in and of themselves are all good, but I do not understand why they can not be combined with good instruction, strong basics, and a quality curriculum where students are held accountable for their abilities.

​

 

[KempoGuy06]

Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.

I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.

what do you mean by commercial? Many school under on banner or just one school?

And Im not saying I wont have a black belt at all im just saying that I wont have 10 year olds running around with BB around their waist.

B

 

[Mark L]

Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.

I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.

Blanket statements like these are troublesome, and often wrong. The school I'm at has been in existence for 20 years, is the sole source of income for the owners' family, and has a thriving kids program (my sons have been there for 8 years), no Jr. Black Belts. Commercial success can be had even if you don't "sell" crap. The BB test is essentially the same ordeal for everyone, it's the best way to maintain the standard. BB eligibility begins at 16. Most that test do so as high school seniors (if they've put in the years), and they are quite formidable by then.

That video was pathetic, but I guess Mom's check cleared ...

 

[JTKenpo]

I'm not going to comment on the clip. What I am going to comment on is the number of people who pass judgement on others but never let their skills or lack there of be put out there for people to see. So many times I hear keyboard warriors cut people up for their lack of skill only to meet them at some seminar some years down the line, work with them and wonder to myself what they have been complaining about because they move no better then those they judge. How do we judge success by our accomplishments or by diminishing others.

 

[SL4Drew]

Blanket statements like these are troublesome, and often wrong. The school I'm at has been in existence for 20 years, is the sole source of income for the owners' family, and has a thriving kids program (my sons have been there for 8 years), no Jr. Black Belts. Commercial success can be had even if you don't "sell" crap. The BB test is essentially the same ordeal for everyone, it's the best way to maintain the standard. BB eligibility begins at 16. Most that test do so as high school seniors (if they've put in the years), and they are quite formidable by then.

That video was pathetic, but I guess Mom's check cleared ...

It's easy for people that have had no experience working with kids to shoot down what they are doing. How about we first take on the mountain of adults doing crap, instead of mugging little Johnny who has no reason to know any better?

The real problem are the instructors and their programs. I can't hardly fault a kid that wants to learn martial arts, any more than a kid that wants to shot a BB gun, go camping, or play football. I'll repeat what I said now for the third time, I believe in age appropriate curriculum. You can learn math, English, or just about any subject at any age--so long as it is age appropriate. It's just plain nonsense to suggest that kids younger that 16 or 18 can't get any benefit from a good program. Japan and China teach various arts to their school kids, and last I checked some of them grow up to be fine martial artists.

There seems to be two objections: awarding a black belt and whether children can learn. If you want kids to look like adults or preform like adults they can't. I agree. But they can achieve high levels of success in an age appropriate program (fourth time). So far I haven't heard from a single person that has actually worked with kids. As far as I am concerned, everyone is disagreeing with me on the basis of an uninformed opinion. And my proof is here:

Mr. Oda was about 19 here. You think he got this good in a year?

Regarding the black belt, I don't think it matters what you award them so long as you give them some recognition. My broader point was the expectation of the parents and the child are such, they expect to be able to earn a "black belt." If you don't offer it, they'll probably think your instruction is lacking and go down the street. Fine, if you don't care. But can you keep the lights on? On the other hand, I offered suggestions of how to meet the expectation of getting the "black belt" but done in a way to not further corrupt the art. If you can sell a read belt or a white belt with black stripes--great. I like it even better. But until the TKD school down the way stops giving away black belts like candy to 8 year olds, you are going to have a devil of a time competing with them. In a market where Joe School Owner has to offer a "black belt" I am not going to flatly deny him that.

And I never made a blanket statement, I said 'probably the school.' Hardly an unqualified blanket statement. In my experience, in my area, most school owners can't support his entire family on teaching adults. It's hard enough for the schools that teach children to make it. For five years I worked at a martial arts supply store, and I spoke to school owners everyday. I also ran a commercial school for a bit. I standby what I said, and I will say it again if need be.

 

[SL4Drew]

what do you mean by commercial? Many school under on banner or just one school?

And Im not saying I wont have a black belt at all im just saying that I wont have 10 year olds running around with BB around their waist.

B

Commercial is largely determined by the owner's intent. A lot of guys work a regular job and teach on the side. This isn't determinative, but when you have external considerations it can force you to make different choices than the guy that does it for pocket cash or fun. That being said, I think you can run an 'old school traditional' school and still be commercial. It just may be harder for you to make money.

If we lived in that world were people didn't care about red stripes, where people how deserved the red had it, where no one pays for a promotion, and where every instructor was a good one, then so to would every "black belt" be an "adult."

My broader point was if you need to offer a junior black belt to compete in your market, I think you can do it and it not be a farce. I believe that you just have to distinguish it in your school and to the observing public, e.g. a white stripe bisecting it. If you don't have to do it to compete, then don't give one.

It falls on the instructor to make sure the students are competent at any belt level. I see plenty of adults who, in my opinion, look terrible while wearing a black belt. It's not like giving the kid a belt is some magical vestment that allows him into the super-secret martial club. For every terrible junior black belt there is at least that many terrible adult black belts, probably many more. The mark of quality is not the simply the belt. Its also the patch and the instructor. A black belt (regardless of age) in one school or in one system is not going to look like another black from another school and another system. If there is no minimum, universal standard for adults to wear the black belt, then I really don't see how there can be one for kids.

I know I am not exactly old school on this, but at the same time teaching children was not uncommon in China or Japan.

 

[SL4Drew]

By way of comparison, same school, but an adult testing for fourth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fXzI_9_5Y&feature=related

You decide.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

By way of comparison, same school, but an adult testing for fourth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53fXzI_9_5Y&feature=related

You decide.

I'm amazed they don't have a ton of negative commeents in the comment section. Guy must be editing them out.

 

[MJS]

Actually the boy was better than some adults I've seen test for red stripes...seriously. He could have had more intensity. But add that and he'd shame many adults--unfortunately.

In a commercial environment you have to cater to kids. And you have to reward them with a 'black belt' at the end of their curriculum otherwise they wouldn't come. I think that it is important to structure you program so that 1) the pre-teen understands that he won't be able to take on an adult with a serious intent to harm or capture; 2) that the kids' black belt be treated differently; and 3) the program be age appropriate. For example, wearing a black belt with a white stripe; permitting them to only wear the white uniform; prohibit them from wearing it after a certain age; and so forth. Karate-Do (Shotokan) began more or less as a kids program.

So I think you can hold kids to high but age appropriate standards. And that includes acknowledging their hard work with a 'black belt.' Doc had a killer kid's program for a while, from which David Oda came. I wish when I was a kid I had been in a program like Doc's. The kids' program in the video could probably be better, but it doesn't appear to be as terrible as some I've seen. I think it stacks up favorably to most TKD and Kenpo schools.

I'd also add I have yet to meet someone who got a black belt as a kid an stopping training that took that rank all that serious.

Not that I disagree with you, but if you are trying to run a commercial school without awarding some kind of black belt, you won't have a kids program (and probably a school) very long.

I'd also add with my experience with Boy Scouts, I believe you could reasonably set an age limit lower than 18 for at least some kids.

I think I may have to disagree. You're making it sound as if every 'commercial' school is a Mcdojo, who promotes people left and right. The school where I train is not like that.

See, this is another reason why I love the motto that I see so many Kajukenbo schools use....something along the lines of...Kaju is not a if you can afford it, we award it art. And this is another reason why I personally feel that nobody under 16 should be a black belt. Additionally, I'm not a fan of young kids, ie: 4, 5, 6, training anyways. IMO, it seems like the majority of the time, its a babysitting session, instead of a class.

Its sad though, that many instructors, don't have the guts to tell parents that their kids suck. I mean, I've been teaching for a long time and I've been on the receiving end of parents asking why little Joey didn't pass, get a stripe on his belt, etc. Students are, IMHO, a reflection of the teacher. Why would a teacher want someone who sucks to pass? Is the almighty dollar more important?

 

[SL4Drew]

I think I may have to disagree. You're making it sound as if every 'commercial' school is a Mcdojo, who promotes people left and right. The school where I train is not like that.

I'll admit it is hard to draw a bright line. As I said, some "commercial" schools can be traditional. Let me also add (in case this didn't come through) no one should teach kids if they don't want to.

Its sad though, that many instructors, don't have the guts to tell parents that their kids suck. I mean, I've been teaching for a long time and I've been on the receiving end of parents asking why little Joey didn't pass, get a stripe on his belt, etc. Students are, IMHO, a reflection of the teacher. Why would a teacher want someone who sucks to pass? Is the almighty dollar more important?

Now that's the real problem. Many years ago when I was an assistant instructor I told a parent that same thing (nicer of course), he got mad, explained to me that he was paying for his kid to come here (not sure how that mattered), and I never taught that kid again--someone else did. To me, this was an example of how 'commercialization' at all levels and ages can be bad. Not only to have to have the guts to tell this guy to keep his money, but you also have to not need it (or be willing to go without).

 

[MJS]

Now that's the real problem. Many years ago when I was an assistant instructor I told a parent that same thing (nicer of course), he got mad, explained to me that he was paying for his kid to come here (not sure how that mattered), and I never taught that kid again--someone else did. To me, this was an example of how 'commercialization' at all levels and ages can be bad.

And sadly, this is the problem that schools are faced with. Parents make the threat to leave because their kid isn't getting X. The parents that I spoke with seemed to forget that I'm not someone who can wave my hand over their kids head and make them perfect. I do my part, and that is teaching their kid. They, the parents and the kid, need to do their part, which is to practice and the parent needs to enforce this. I'd get the "Well, my kid started at the same time Joey did and Joey is 2 belts ahead." Umm...yeah, and maynbe, just maybe, Joey does what he is supposed to...practice.

I was simply an inst. at the school. The school was not mine. Fortunately, when I encountered rough times, I'd simply refer them to the owner of the school. I'd explain my side, they'd explain theirs. The decision would fall on the owner. Fortunately, more times than not, I was the winner in that battle.

 

[KempoGuy06]

I think I may have to disagree. You're making it sound as if every 'commercial' school is a Mcdojo, who promotes people left and right. The school where I train is not like that.

See, this is another reason why I love the motto that I see so many Kajukenbo schools use....something along the lines of...Kaju is not a if you can afford it, we award it art. And this is another reason why I personally feel that nobody under 16 should be a black belt. Additionally, I'm not a fan of young kids, ie: 4, 5, 6, training anyways. IMO, it seems like the majority of the time, its a babysitting session, instead of a class.

Its sad though, that many instructors, don't have the guts to tell parents that their kids suck. I mean, I've been teaching for a long time and I've been on the receiving end of parents asking why little Joey didn't pass, get a stripe on his belt, etc. Students are, IMHO, a reflection of the teacher. Why would a teacher want someone who sucks to pass? Is the almighty dollar more important?

Thats what I took it as and I was mad. My school is as old school as I know (limited years training here). My instructor was up front and told me that if i was looking to attain BB in 18 months that i needed to go somewhere else. That the progression was only through hard work and not what you know. At our school even if you know all the material if i were to go through my stuff like the kid did in the OP's video I would still be a white belt. I know kids dont have the same outlook as adults but that kids lack of enthusiasm (for want of a better word) was disgraceful and honestly disrespectful. I would have been laughed at.

again my .02

B