Journey to a new style...

[DaveB]

Sounds a little cultish to me.

 

[_Simon_]

Hey Simon, let me put it to you this way, sometimes you meet a girl that doesn't want to give up the 'cookie' until you go steady. Other times you meet a girl that enjoys giving 'cookies' to anyone she likes. Is one better than the other ? No they are just different but that doesn't mean that you will like them both the same. You can't change where, when or who they will give the 'cookies' too but you can change whether you want to be there to accept it.

Thanks for the feedback!

Hehe, still trying to decipher this one XD

Are saying that I should either: Accept it or move on.

Or that neither approach is necessarily wrong, just different, and it's up to me what to choose to do?

True, and for sure I'm not saying it's a wrong approach, it just feels a little icky to me. I respect keeping a commitment to one style so as not to confuse progress. But to say I can't do two is strange to impose...

But if that is the condition for training there, fair enough I respect that, just doesn't make sense to me personally.

 

[_Simon_]

I would have to respectfully ask if he's saying he doesn't allow people to train with him if they are doing something else. I'm pretty sure you know what my response would be if he said, "Yes." I'd ask very respectfully, because he may simply be mis-speaking, meaning to say it's not a good idea.

Yeah that's what I'm wondering... it honestly felt like there was more behind it, and I can usually sense when something is off or when there are red flags.

It felt very definitive from him, he seemed very forceful in his speech and behaviour that I cannot do that. It's either one or the other, and said for his dojang it's not good.

So I got the sense that if I was to train in something else as well on the side, he would pull me to the side and get me to choose, and wouldn't allow it.

That's the thing, I'm not planning on doing two styles. But do I want to train in an environment that has that umm... for lack of a better word, enforced loyalty in place?

Hmm... I'm a bit conflicted with this!

And to not even be able to help in the kid's class anymore for my old dojo...

 

[_Simon_]

Playing devil’s advocate:
He doesn’t want you training whenever you feel like it, cherry picking techniques and strategy to learn, then turning around and teaching that to others. He wants a dedicated and committed student who’s going to learn everything he teaches as a system/comprehensive curriculum rather than just wanting to learn bits and pieces as you wish.

My feelings on him based solely on what you’ve said:

What you do outside of his class is none of his business. Unless you’re bringing negative attention to his school and name or are teaching what he’s teaching you without his permission.

You probably both have some wrong ideas about each other’s intentions. How wrong is the question.

I say it here all the time: the most important thing is who you’re learning from and who you’re training alongside. There’s no perfect style. Why do you continue to associate with the Kyokushin group? The people. Plain and simple IMO. Sure the style has something to do with it, but if they weren’t who they are, you’d pretty much sever your ties and be done.

How should you handle the current situation? Be done with it. The guy doesn’t want you anywhere else, and you don’t want to be told who to associate with in what capacity.

Appreciate both sides there!

Yeah I made clear to him my intention was solely to find a good fit, and not just to pick up bits here and there to sell them off somewhere, nor even for my own benefit to accumulate them. I made clear to him it's a process of finding what I want to ultimately commit to.

And yeah, if I'm bringing his school a bad name or negative influence, absolutely that's cause for bringing all this up.

Yeah for sure it's possible we've misunderstood each other.

It seems to be a tradition he's been brought up in, so I can agree to disagree and leave. Or if I enjoy it and want to commit, then it won't even come up I guess.

It's just...... a weird feeling about this all..... :s

I don't even know if I want to try a couple more weeks or not, the interaction left a really bad taste in my mouth.

 

[_Simon_]

Sounds a little cultish to me.

That's what it felt like... it felt possessive and controlling rather than just a passing thought letting me know that it's hard to make progress with more than one style, and his energy and behaviour suggested the former moreso than anything else.

I mean, just a thought.... if I played basketball.. why couldn't I play football too :s

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah that's what I'm wondering... it honestly felt like there was more behind it, and I can usually sense when something is off or when there are red flags.

It felt very definitive from him, he seemed very forceful in his speech and behaviour that I cannot do that. It's either one or the other, and said for his dojang it's not good.

So I got the sense that if I was to train in something else as well on the side, he would pull me to the side and get me to choose, and wouldn't allow it.

That's the thing, I'm not planning on doing two styles. But do I want to train in an environment that has that umm... for lack of a better word, enforced loyalty in place?

Hmm... I'm a bit conflicted with this!

And to not even be able to help in the kid's class anymore for my old dojo...

Obviously, you'll have to decide for yourself. If it were me, I simply couldn't train there. I would expect him to also have a right/wrong attitude about how things are done, and in my experience that degrades a system over time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's what it felt like... it felt possessive and controlling rather than just a passing thought letting me know that it's hard to make progress with more than one style, and his energy and behaviour suggested the former moreso than anything else.

I mean, just a thought.... if I played basketball.. why couldn't I play football too :s

And that's why I would ask. It's clear you don't like the implications, but like training there. Before I'd give up on it, I'd ask - just to be sure there wasn't a misunderstanding.

 

[_Simon_]

Obviously, you'll have to decide for yourself. If it were me, I simply couldn't train there. I would expect him to also have a right/wrong attitude about how things are done, and in my experience that degrades a system over time.

And that's why I would ask. It's clear you don't like the implications, but like training there. Before I'd give up on it, I'd ask - just to be sure there wasn't a misunderstanding.

Yeah I have an uneasy feeling about training there. It wasn't an instant love of the place, I think I moreso enjoyed training in a dojo/dojang again more than anything.

More than anything I want to feel comfortable with where I'm training and who I'm learning from but you're right in terms of clearing it up. Always appreciate your insights and thoughts.

We'll see if I can muster up the courage to ask, or do what I feel I'm leaning towards...

 

[mrt2]

Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.

Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.

... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.

Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.

He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.

...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.

My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...

I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.

If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.

I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.

I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.

Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...

??

While the instructor sounds very traditional, I think you should move on.

One the one hand, I can see how in traditional martial arts, you can only have one master who guides your instruction and teaches you an entire curricullum. And if you were a complete beginner, this might make some sense.

But you aren't a complete beginner and so long as you aren't disrupting his classes, what you do outside of his classes is none of his business. It sounds like a power play, where your teacher is trying to control what you learn. Moreover, I think we are way past the notion of a "pure style". Look for a teacher who supports what you are trying to do.

 

[Headhunter]

Hmm.... had another session tonight and it was pretty cool, did some one-step and block-counter drills, patterns etc.

Instructor chatted with a couple of us newbies just explaining what the fees are etc, all good there. I left to grab my bag, and was about to leave when he called me back over to chat.

... it was a little odd. He was sort of asking me about my training around and trying different styles, asking well what's my reason for that. And I kindly just explained I'm just trialling some styles out to get a feel for them and see what I really resonate and connect with before I really commit. And he kept being under the impression that I was trying this and that and taking bits for my toolbox. I reassured him no it's just for my own exploring, just wanting to make sure I've found something that suits me.

Well he said to me well you can't be training this and that, and if you train here you can't train elsewhere. He also said he was aware I was still helping out in the kids class in my old dojo, and that I can't be training multiple styles, it's just not gonna work, and that I have to pick one or the other.

He said it would be too confusing for his students, and moreso confusing for myself. Made the analogy of playing in two different basketball teams, which didn't really make sense.

...... it was just odd, and to be honest a bit off-putting. I totally get what he means in terms of it can be very confusing training more than one style at the same time (which I was never going to do anyway), and can be difficult to make progress. And certainly you can mix up techniques etc.

My issue was with him using multiple times the word "can't". It felt like he was telling me what I could and could not do...

I told him ah yeah I do respect what he's saying and understand completely that it can be tricky training multiple styles, but it felt like there was something more behind what he was saying.

If he had have said "Ah yeah it's not the best idea to train multiple styles as it can be hard to not mix them up" I would have gotten that, but there was a strange energy behind what he said, as though he won't allow it.

I wasn't planning on training multiple styles at once anyway (wasn't too sure about continuing helping in the kid's class), but it just felt a little..... off. I have heard of this sort of thing in martial arts before, but never experienced it. Just the black and white you can't train two styles, feels a bit controlling.

I don't know... anyone have any thoughts on this? Was also odd that he brought it up on my second night there. Would make more sense if I'd been there for a bit longer. Or even if I was training two styles, if I clearly was struggling with progressing in the curriculum or technique as a result then I would expect him to bring it up.

Part of me gets what he means... and part of me thinks well it's my decision and responsibility...

??

Well if he'd said that to me. He wouldn't see me again. If an instructor is trying to control what you do outside of the classes then that's a cult mentality. It's none of his business what I do with my free time. Hes not a god or anything at all outside of his club. He's a regular normal person in the street outside of training and I'm a grown man. I'm not going to be told what I can and can't do with my life by this guy with insecurity issues. Imo get on Google and find a new club

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well if he'd said that to me. He wouldn't see me again. If an instructor is trying to control what you do outside of the classes then that's a cult mentality. It's none of his business what I do with my free time. Hes not a god or anything at all outside of his club. He's a regular normal person in the street outside of training and I'm a grown man. I'm not going to be told what I can and can't do with my life by this guy with insecurity issues. Imo get on Google and find a new club

I think calling it a cult mentality may be overstating the issue, HH. I think in most cases, folks who say "you can't train in something else" are simply parroting what they've been told is a proper approach. It's not about (to that person) controlling other people, but about keeping things pure. I don't agree with the approach, at all, and I'm not at all convinced it's even particularly traditional, though some folks seem to think it's the traditional approach.

 

[JR 137]

I think calling it a cult mentality may be overstating the issue, HH. I think in most cases, folks who say "you can't train in something else" are simply parroting what they've been told is a proper approach. It's not about (to that person) controlling other people, but about keeping things pure. I don't agree with the approach, at all, and I'm not at all convinced it's even particularly traditional, though some folks seem to think it's the traditional approach.

All the founders of the major karate systems today - Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu, et al all had multiple teachers. Many had more than one teacher at the same time for a period.

Saying someone can only have one teacher because that’s the traditional way is either misinformed, delusional, or insecure. Or a combination of those.

Saying @_Simon_ SHOULD only have one teacher is far better and more realistic than saying he HAS TO have only one teacher. I understand if a teacher says you should only have one teacher because you should focus on that one style until you’ve got depth to your training. But if a teacher told me I had to make a choice between his school and another one I was attending, I’d easily make a choice - the other school. That is unless of course I’m a live-in protege of a world famous person who’s training me to become his disciple. Like if Pablo Picasso told me he doesn’t want me as his student if I’m learning from others too. But unless they’re at a Picasso level, I’m doing my own thing during my own time.

If Hajime Kazumi (Kyokushin guys know his name) was training me to compete and told me he didn’t want me learning from others because it was contradicting what he was teaching (the techniques, strategy, etc.), then I’d do what he said. Kazumi’s argument would hold water - he’s arguably the best knockdown fighter Kyokushin ever produced. Anything short of him saying that, I’m out.

 

[_Simon_]

While the instructor sounds very traditional, I think you should move on.

One the one hand, I can see how in traditional martial arts, you can only have one master who guides your instruction and teaches you an entire curricullum. And if you were a complete beginner, this might make some sense.

But you aren't a complete beginner and so long as you aren't disrupting his classes, what you do outside of his classes is none of his business. It sounds like a power play, where your teacher is trying to control what you learn. Moreover, I think we are way past the notion of a "pure style". Look for a teacher who supports what you are trying to do.

Yeah that makes total sense, as long as I'm not disrupting the class or "damaging" it. And yes, I've had some great instructors who have been so supportive of my path and what I'm doing now.

 

[_Simon_]

Well if he'd said that to me. He wouldn't see me again. If an instructor is trying to control what you do outside of the classes then that's a cult mentality. It's none of his business what I do with my free time. Hes not a god or anything at all outside of his club. He's a regular normal person in the street outside of training and I'm a grown man. I'm not going to be told what I can and can't do with my life by this guy with insecurity issues. Imo get on Google and find a new club

Cheers appreciate that HH, and yeah I think what's been talked about before on these forums is interesting regarding martial arts sometimes developing some strange quasi-universe and traditions that you don't really find in alot of other sports/activities. Strange loyalties and different rules...

 

[_Simon_]

All the founders of the major karate systems today - Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu, et al all had multiple teachers. Many had more than one teacher at the same time for a period.

Saying someone can only have one teacher because that’s the traditional way is either misinformed, delusional, or insecure. Or a combination of those.

Saying @_Simon_ SHOULD only have one teacher is far better and more realistic than saying he HAS TO have only one teacher. I understand if a teacher says you should only have one teacher because you should focus on that one style until you’ve got depth to your training. But if a teacher told me I had to make a choice between his school and another one I was attending, I’d easily make a choice - the other school. That is unless of course I’m a live-in protege of a world famous person who’s training me to become his disciple. Like if Pablo Picasso told me he doesn’t want me as his student if I’m learning from others too. But unless they’re at a Picasso level, I’m doing my own thing during my own time.

If Hajime Kazumi (Kyokushin guys know his name) was training me to compete and told me he didn’t want me learning from others because it was contradicting what he was teaching (the techniques, strategy, etc.), then I’d do what he said. Kazumi’s argument would hold water - he’s arguably the best knockdown fighter Kyokushin ever produced. Anything short of him saying that, I’m out.

Yeah well said mate.

It was just a strange interaction, saying I can't be doing that, and it's either one or the other. I don't know if it's a Tang Soo thing or just this fellow.

I remember when I first sat in to watch a class late last year, and I mentioned about still helping out in the kid's class, and he said something like, so how's that gonna work, and well that's not really gonna work is it. I was taken aback by it as it felt like such an irrelevant thing, but seemed important to him I guess.

All this discussion has been incredibly helpful, so thank you guys. At least it's let me know I'm not crazy haha. And it's given me awareness of what to look for in other schools.

And yeeeep, learning under Kazumi would be unreal

 

[Vivian.Gee]

Have you considered training in no touch martial art forms?

 

[_Simon_]

Have you considered training in no touch martial art forms?

Wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole!

*lame attempt at a joke* XD

G'day and welcome! Nah never really considered it, not really sure what that entails either. Do you mean a style that does mainly forms, or one which has no-touch methods? I don't think there's anything like that close to me anyways.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah well said mate.

It was just a strange interaction, saying I can't be doing that, and it's either one or the other. I don't know if it's a Tang Soo thing or just this fellow.

I remember when I first sat in to watch a class late last year, and I mentioned about still helping out in the kid's class, and he said something like, so how's that gonna work, and well that's not really gonna work is it. I was taken aback by it as it felt like such an irrelevant thing, but seemed important to him I guess.

All this discussion has been incredibly helpful, so thank you guys. At least it's let me know I'm not crazy haha. And it's given me awareness of what to look for in other schools.

And yeeeep, learning under Kazumi would be unreal

Anytime you see that, it's a fairly safe assumption it's the person, not the style. Sometimes it'll be a large collection of persons doing the same thing, but you'll nearly always be able to find someone in the same style who isn't so secretive or controlling or misinformed.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Thanks for the feedback!

Hehe, still trying to decipher this one XD

Are saying that I should either: Accept it or move on.

Or that neither approach is necessarily wrong, just different, and it's up to me what to choose to do?

True, and for sure I'm not saying it's a wrong approach, it just feels a little icky to me. I respect keeping a commitment to one style so as not to confuse progress. But to say I can't do two is strange to impose...

But if that is the condition for training there, fair enough I respect that, just doesn't make sense to me personally.

Hey Simon,

The point I was trying to make was that you can only control your reaction to something that is said to you. You cannot control the person saying it.

There are many instances I can think of that have clubs or schools that want to restrict the activities of their athletes. Especially in higher level sports where the risk of injury increases when athletes are playing multiple contact sports. There are certain clubs that are pursuing 'excellence' and they want their athletes to commit to their club and their sport to the exclusion of others. The argument is that an athlete focused on one sport will excel faster than an athlete that is focused on many as more time is dedicated to learning the sport. The chances of injury are also better controlled as the athlete is under the supervision of the club's trainers.

To be clear, I do not subscribe to these beliefs and in actuality I believe that kids especially should NOT focus on one sport until they become an age where they can make that decision for themselves (they are the ones that have to make the commitment and sacrifice to pursue excellence after all). Still it doesn't mean that I do not understand that this mentality exists and there are many people that subscribe to that way of thinking. What they choose for their children and for themselves is their business.

All this being said, you are not quite a child any longer and you are able to choose wisely for yourself. If you aren't comfortable joining a club with this type of restriction then it is best for you to move on. Hopefully you will find a club whose policies will make you feel more comfortable and will resonate with you in the way you want to train.

 

[_Simon_]

Hey Simon,

The point I was trying to make was that you can only control your reaction to something that is said to you. You cannot control the person saying it.

There are many instances I can think of that have clubs or schools that want to restrict the activities of their athletes. Especially in higher level sports where the risk of injury increases when athletes are playing multiple contact sports. There are certain clubs that are pursuing 'excellence' and they want their athletes to commit to their club and their sport to the exclusion of others. The argument is that an athlete focused on one sport will excel faster than an athlete that is focused on many as more time is dedicated to learning the sport. The chances of injury are also better controlled as the athlete is under the supervision of the club's trainers.

To be clear, I do not subscribe to these beliefs and in actuality I believe that kids especially should NOT focus on one sport until they become an age where they can make that decision for themselves (they are the ones that have to make the commitment and sacrifice to pursue excellence after all). Still it doesn't mean that I do not understand that this mentality exists and there are many people that subscribe to that way of thinking. What they choose for their children and for themselves is their business.

All this being said, you are not quite a child any longer and you are able to choose wisely for yourself. If you aren't comfortable joining a club with this type of restriction then it is best for you to move on. Hopefully you will find a club whose policies will make you feel more comfortable and will resonate with you in the way you want to train.

Osu thanks mate that makes alot of sense. Yeah I guess it is a practice that's still around in some places, and you're right it's not for me to change. I can either train there or not, and in the end it has to be somewhere I am comfortable with. I can understand both sides, but one of them makes more sense to me for sure.